Has Gurps become Champions?

Parabola · 06-20-2006, 09:28 PM

Okay, I don't really mean that to sound like it probably did. I've always loved Gurps but I do have to be honest, when I first started looking at the 4th edition, I felt like I was reading Champions instead of Gurps.

I've always liked the idea of universal systems starting with the Basic Roleplaying system, then the Palladium system, then Hero Games which I liked best until Gurps. But one of the big differences was that I seldom referred to Hero system as Hero system. I just called it "Champions" because the system clearly revolved around the superhero genre. I didn't refer to Gurps as the "Gurps Supers system" because it didn't revolve around the superhero genre. But with 4th edition, to be honest, it kind of does feel like it mostly revolves around the superhero genre with superheroic level advantages and enhancements and limitations dominating the basic book.

Way back when Gurps Supers came out, I was a bit worried because I know that if there is one genre that can throw off the power scale of a universal system and cause the players to think of all the other genres as weak by comparison, it is the superhero genre.

Former Gurps writer S. John Ross has said, "GURPS Vehicles is positively harmless, by the way, compared to the massive damage inflicted on the system by GURPS Supers and GURPS Martial Arts, especially the former. GURPS Vehicles is an isolated rules-set that only infects the game on the Big Hardware level, and since my games never have anything to do with Big Hardware, it's not a problem for me. GURPS Supers, though, wormed its way deep into the bones of character creation (especially for nonhuman races) and there has never been a less competent work of game design than GURPS Supers. As I'm fond of saying: Loyd Blankenship put the bullet in GURPS. The current regime simply sat on it and smothered it out of the coma.

(And Loyd is a great guy and a good writer, BTW - he just can't do elegant rules for beans)."

While I think Gurps Powers and the new Gurps in general is very well thought out and has the advantage of thinking out all the genres together rather than adding them one at a time without great balance between the points costs, I wonder if it is a good idea for Gurps to reset in such a way that a reader upon looking immediately thinks, "Oh my god, Gurps has become Champions".

Fnordianslip · 06-20-2006, 09:38 PM

Really? Odd, I've played a wide range of games in GURPS, both third ed and 4th. Frankly, 4th seems better at pointing out which advantages are suitable for a cinematic campaign than the prior version. It's pretty straightforward, don't allow the cinematic/super advantages in a game that shouldn't have em. I often put together a list of which ones are allowable before the game begins, then, my players know what's OK in the campaign and what isn't. If the game emphasizes being universal, it has to include the rules for cinematic as well as realistic play. For realistic/low fantasy games, the rules work pretty well. Just remember that supernatural durability and mind control probably aren't suitable for it and tell your players that before they make characters.

Khaoticphury · 06-20-2006, 10:17 PM

In a bassackwards sort of way, the more powers and the more options that became available to me within GURPS, the less likely I was to play something world shattering because I could build and prepare with precision. Finesse, even.
In most Palladium games I played, you built the meanest toughest character you could because things were trying to kill you and you were never garunteed to make a good accounting of yourself. Things were either a lethal threat or laughable, never a middleground. GURPS is way better at this. Things are just generally lethal without getting silly.
As for a Supers genre being overwhelmingly or bad for rules, I need only point people towards Wild Cards or The Watchmen for dealing with it. I don't care if you can bounce bullets or fly, bankruptcy or AIDS will still leave you in the gutter. In fact, pretty much all throughout fiction, having "superpowers" destroys any semblance you have of a normal life.
Also it comes down to nobody wanting to play something boring. You get Adventure-y advantages for Adventure-y heros. Or DISadvantages, as the case may be.
To conclude, I don't think people will open up GURPS 4e and say "Champions!".

jahn · 06-20-2006, 11:15 PM

Although there are more superficial similarities than before, GURPS 4E and Hero System 5E are still vastly different.

Mark Skarr · 06-20-2006, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jahn

Although there are more superficial similarities than before, GURPS 4E and Hero System 5E are still vastly different.

I agree with jahn. There are a lot of things that, on the surface seem the same, but the two games are far more different than they are similar. The biggest similarity is the fact that it doesn't matter what you call the power, the mechanics are the same. A radio and telepathy have different special effects, but the end results are the same, you talk to some one at a distance.

But I don't usually have a problem with my players trying to pull something out that I don't want in my game.

DrTemp · 06-21-2006, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parabola

[...]But with 4th edition, to be honest, it kind of does feel like it mostly revolves around the superhero genre with superheroic level advantages and enhancements and limitations dominating the basic book.
[...]

But actually, it does not. Sure, there are the Advantages and Psi chapters, but they are only a small part of Basic Set. Most rules are about more mundane things. It's just that the Advantages chapter is full of nice new things, and thus attracts the most attention.

However, GURPS 4e is a bit more cinematic than 3e: The ability to dodge forever is a good example for this.

Qoltar · 06-21-2006, 01:12 AM

I hate Dodges...especially Silver Dodges. Plymouth Dodges ...vintage year 2000 - really hate that car. Dodge Plymouth - Bad!!
Hurt my body ...so its a BAD car ...

Oh...you meant the game mechanic "Dodge".... OOPS

DrTemp · 06-21-2006, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qoltar

I hate Dodges...especially Silver Dodges. Plymouth Dodges ...vintage year 2000 - really hate that car. Dodge Plymouth - Bad!!
Hurt my body ...so its a BAD car ...[...]

Hm. What would the ability to create a Dodge every second cost as a Power? :o)

Nikolai · 06-21-2006, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrTemp

However, GURPS 4e is a bit more cinematic than 3e: The ability to dodge forever is a good example for this.

I don't think this is a good example for what you want to
"proof": Dodging forever was already possible in 3e.

Almafeta · 06-21-2006, 05:12 AM

The 'Herofication' of powers in 4e is rather bothersome -- jury-rigging a power by taking an advantage sort of close to it from an advantage list by cross-referencing the power you start with to the list of modifiers to approximate the power you want, instead of just buying it.

But that's only apparent for supernatural powers, and many of the failings of HERO haven't been seen in GURPS yet. Instead of the simplistic disadvantage list of HERO, GURPS's disadvantage system is much more robust and much less abusable. Despite a move towards the total unification of some types of powers (talents, etc.), advantages are not considered to be special cases of other advantages, and abilities other than combat-related ones are given their proper place, both in text space and in point cost.

For that matter, HERO has made some significant advances lately -- their online documents are useful, Sidekick is the first and most significant real progress the system has made towards playability in years, and for the first time in a very long time, HERO's support (in terms of things actually available) exceeds GURPS's in quantity and quality. It's an interesting time to be a player of either system.

06-20-2006, 09:28 PM	#1
Parabola Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Indiana	Has Gurps become Champions? Okay, I don't really mean that to sound like it probably did. I've always loved Gurps but I do have to be honest, when I first started looking at the 4th edition, I felt like I was reading Champions instead of Gurps. I've always liked the idea of universal systems starting with the Basic Roleplaying system, then the Palladium system, then Hero Games which I liked best until Gurps. But one of the big differences was that I seldom referred to Hero system as Hero system. I just called it "Champions" because the system clearly revolved around the superhero genre. I didn't refer to Gurps as the "Gurps Supers system" because it didn't revolve around the superhero genre. But with 4th edition, to be honest, it kind of does feel like it mostly revolves around the superhero genre with superheroic level advantages and enhancements and limitations dominating the basic book. Way back when Gurps Supers came out, I was a bit worried because I know that if there is one genre that can throw off the power scale of a universal system and cause the players to think of all the other genres as weak by comparison, it is the superhero genre. Former Gurps writer S. John Ross has said, "GURPS Vehicles is positively harmless, by the way, compared to the massive damage inflicted on the system by GURPS Supers and GURPS Martial Arts, especially the former. GURPS Vehicles is an isolated rules-set that only infects the game on the Big Hardware level, and since my games never have anything to do with Big Hardware, it's not a problem for me. GURPS Supers, though, wormed its way deep into the bones of character creation (especially for nonhuman races) and there has never been a less competent work of game design than GURPS Supers. As I'm fond of saying: Loyd Blankenship put the bullet in GURPS. The current regime simply sat on it and smothered it out of the coma. (And Loyd is a great guy and a good writer, BTW - he just can't do elegant rules for beans)." While I think Gurps Powers and the new Gurps in general is very well thought out and has the advantage of thinking out all the genres together rather than adding them one at a time without great balance between the points costs, I wonder if it is a good idea for Gurps to reset in such a way that a reader upon looking immediately thinks, "Oh my god, Gurps has become Champions".

06-20-2006, 09:38 PM	#2
Fnordianslip Join Date: Dec 2005	Re: Has Gurps become Champions? Really? Odd, I've played a wide range of games in GURPS, both third ed and 4th. Frankly, 4th seems better at pointing out which advantages are suitable for a cinematic campaign than the prior version. It's pretty straightforward, don't allow the cinematic/super advantages in a game that shouldn't have em. I often put together a list of which ones are allowable before the game begins, then, my players know what's OK in the campaign and what isn't. If the game emphasizes being universal, it has to include the rules for cinematic as well as realistic play. For realistic/low fantasy games, the rules work pretty well. Just remember that supernatural durability and mind control probably aren't suitable for it and tell your players that before they make characters.

06-20-2006, 10:17 PM	#3
Khaoticphury Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: East Coast	Re: Has Gurps become Champions? In a bassackwards sort of way, the more powers and the more options that became available to me within GURPS, the less likely I was to play something world shattering because I could build and prepare with precision. Finesse, even. In most Palladium games I played, you built the meanest toughest character you could because things were trying to kill you and you were never garunteed to make a good accounting of yourself. Things were either a lethal threat or laughable, never a middleground. GURPS is way better at this. Things are just generally lethal without getting silly. As for a Supers genre being overwhelmingly or bad for rules, I need only point people towards Wild Cards or The Watchmen for dealing with it. I don't care if you can bounce bullets or fly, bankruptcy or AIDS will still leave you in the gutter. In fact, pretty much all throughout fiction, having "superpowers" destroys any semblance you have of a normal life. Also it comes down to nobody wanting to play something boring. You get Adventure-y advantages for Adventure-y heros. Or DISadvantages, as the case may be. To conclude, I don't think people will open up GURPS 4e and say "Champions!". __________________ You do realize I'm usually wildly intoxicated when I write these, right?

06-20-2006, 11:15 PM	#4
jahn Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Union City, California	Re: Has Gurps become Champions? Although there are more superficial similarities than before, GURPS 4E and Hero System 5E are still vastly different. __________________ Kevin C. Wong jahn@csua.berkleley.edu

06-21-2006, 01:12 AM	#7
Qoltar Pike's Pique Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio U.S.A.	Re: Has Gurps become Champions? I hate Dodges...especially Silver Dodges. Plymouth Dodges ...vintage year 2000 - really hate that car. Dodge Plymouth - Bad!! Hurt my body ...so its a BAD car ... Oh...you meant the game mechanic "Dodge".... OOPS __________________ Take me out to the black Tell them I ain't comin' back Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me.... A vote for charity: http://s3.silent-tower.org/TheKlingonVotes/index.html

06-21-2006, 05:12 AM	#10
Almafeta Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Y'know, around.	Re: Has Gurps become Champions? The 'Herofication' of powers in 4e is rather bothersome -- jury-rigging a power by taking an advantage sort of close to it from an advantage list by cross-referencing the power you start with to the list of modifiers to approximate the power you want, instead of just buying it. But that's only apparent for supernatural powers, and many of the failings of HERO haven't been seen in GURPS yet. Instead of the simplistic disadvantage list of HERO, GURPS's disadvantage system is much more robust and much less abusable. Despite a move towards the total unification of some types of powers (talents, etc.), advantages are not considered to be special cases of other advantages, and abilities other than combat-related ones are given their proper place, both in text space and in point cost. For that matter, HERO has made some significant advances lately -- their online documents are useful, Sidekick is the first and most significant real progress the system has made towards playability in years, and for the first time in a very long time, HERO's support (in terms of things actually available) exceeds GURPS's in quantity and quality. It's an interesting time to be a player of either system.