How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?

[Axly Suregrip]

Below I would like to know how others have interpreted the rules in ITL. I am not interested in House Rules. That is, please share your house rule only if it is an attempt to interpret the rules, not if it embellishes or adds to the rules. Also note this is strictly about ITL as Melee's MG rules are different.

When I read the rules for Main Gauche (MG) and the Two Weapons Skill, I find a hole that is not explicitly defined. With two weapons there are three possible uses: Attack with both, attack with one and attack with neither (Defend). I find the MG rules are not explicit about the parry effect when attacking with both.

MG rules state:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG strikes at AdjDX-4; No statement on -1 parry (allow or don't?).
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)

Two Weapons skill states:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon strikes at AdjDX-4; No parry.
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon parries -2 (only vs melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks)

When I look at the MG situation in light of the Two Weapons rules, I come to the conclusion that the MG does not get the -1 parry whenever the MG is attacking. This to me is logical as the MG is either being used to strike or parry.

If you assume no MG parry during MG attack, then the two can be combined cleanly. That is when you have someone with a MG and either Two Weapons skill or Fencing Skill, you are easily able to combine the rules. If instead you allow the MG to parry while striking, then combining the skill with the MG becomes a mess (-1 -2 and -3 at times and various amounts may not apply to 2 handed attacks, etc) nor is it logical it is doing both attacking and defending.

So I end up with:

Using MG with Two Weapons/Fencing skill:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) strikes at AdjDX-4; No parry.
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) parries -2 (only vs melee attacks) <-- improved both -1 to -2 and now all melee attacks
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks) <-- improved both -1 to -2 and now all melee attacks


In the above, I would like to know how others have interpreted the rules in ITL. I am not interested in House Rules. That is, please share your house rule only if it is an attempt to interpret the rules, not if it embellishes or adds to the rules.

Let me know how you have interpreted this.

[larsdangly]

This has been extensively discussed on various threads here and, while I don't think you can us the RAW to defend a clearly 'correct' interpretation, consensus seems to be that you get to keep the -1 protection of the main gauche on turns when you use it to deliver a second melee attack at -4 DX. In this sense it is a special exception (sort of like net and trident or two nunchucks are special exceptions).

[Axly Suregrip]

Thank you Lars.

I would then summarize the rules like this:

MG rules state:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG strikes at AdjDX-4; MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)

Two Weapons skill states:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon strikes at AdjDX-4; No parry.
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon parries -2 (only vs melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks)

Using MG with Two Weapons/Fencing skill:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) strikes at AdjDX-4; MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) parries -2 (only vs melee attacks) and additional MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks) and additional MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)

[larsdangly]

That's pretty close to what I think is the 'board consensus', except I don't believe anyone has suggested you should be able to stack the Two Weapons parry bonus with another shield-like bonus using the same weapon. So, I would say using a main gauche with no secondary attack and two weapons talent you get 2 rather than 3 armor points.

[Axly Suregrip]

Thank you again Lars.

I would then summarize the rules like this:

MG rules state:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG strikes at AdjDX-4; MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks) <<< no reason to ever do this, since attacking with both is better. This is not a problem
- defend: Defends and MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)

Two Weapons skill states:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon strikes at AdjDX-4; No parry.
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon parries -2 (only vs melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks)

Using MG with Two Weapons/Fencing skill:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) strikes at AdjDX-4; MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) parries -2 (only vs melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks)

Interesting how Fencing with Rapier+MG differs from 2xRapiers. As a secondary weapon if you attack with both, the MG gives you a -1 parry. As a secondary weapon the rapier does one more hit of damage than the MG. So, good given and take. So, yes this works. Thank you.

[larsdangly]

Great; I'm glad that was helpful. TFT has a number of technical rules that are ambiguous, and I would say 'best practices' should always be to select the interpretation that leads to the most balanced outcome in terms of the value of the choice in question. Another way to judge the special main gauche rules is by comparison with what else you might have done with that left hand. If you used a 2 handed weapon you would gain 1 point of damage. If you held a small shield instead of a main gauche your armor protection would count vs. all melee and missile attacks. The main gauche's attack does an average of 1.5 pts of damage x the fractional chance of success, which will often be 0.5 or less due to the DX penalty). So, it is really 'worth' something quite similar to what you could have gained by making a different choice.

[Helborn]

ITL 41 (Two Weapons talent)
Any character can fight with two weapons at once – if one of the weapons
is a dagger, main-gauche, or spike shield, or if some combination like net-and-trident or two cesti is being used. However, a character who wants to fight with two swords, sword and mace, or other such combination must have this talent.


This to me means that Two Weapon talent is useless for a M-G or dagger as the second weapon. No 2-Wpn rules apply.


ITL 111 Left-Hand Weapons
The left-hand dagger, or main-gauche, acts as a shield to parry 1 hit per attack, from non-missile, one-handed weapons only, from your front hexes. If you take an attack option, you can also make a separate dagger attack against the same enemy. It is rolled at -4 DX.


No talent other than Knife/Sword required. I also read it as saying that you can either use it as a shield or attack but not both. (The "also" refers to a second attack in the same turn not a second use for the dagger or main-gauche.)
So, you can use a left hand dagger or main-gauche with the Fencer/Master Fencer Talents but not with the Two Weapons talent.
In other words IF you have Fencer then you get the -2 parry with a M-G or -4 if you use both weapons to parry as well as the -1DX for your opponent from Fencer BUT you don't get those results if you just have Two-weapons.

[Axly Suregrip]

Hi Hellborn,
Read the "Fencing" skill. It is specifically about using Main Gauche with this skill which grants Two Weapons skill for MGs on top of what the MG does already.
-kind regards
-Alan

My apologies. Correction to what I wrote above:

Hi Helborn,
I misread your update. Yes I think we are saying the same thing.
-kind regards
-Alan

[Nils_Lindeberg]

I will ask this here since it is a discussion about left handed attacks.

What about doing a left hand attack when fighting unarmed? Not in HTH, but in general. And I know some people think it means using your whole body, but in HTH you can use two daggers, or at least I have seen builds like that.

You can box with two cesti and UC V allows double punching without any penalty to the left or secondary attack which seems fine as an added perk of that level. But what is to stop me from attacking with my 1 handed sword and then kick or give them a left hook, instead of adding a secondary knife attack?

Can this be used with UC? I don't think it would make things unbalanced really. At least not compared to expertise and mastery builds, fencing builds and so on.

[Skarg]

Rules-as-written:

If you mean, can you do an unarmed melee attack with something in your right hand, I would say yes, because the description includes kicking.

However the description of Unarmed Combat talent says it requires both hands free.

If you mean can you do two unarmed melee attacks in one turn, no, clearly not except with cesti or Unarmed Combat V. By the rules-as-written these are very clearly exceptions that underline that no, you can't generally make multiple unarmed combat melee attacks per turn - I would say that they already represent doing whatever you can to try to hurt someone with whatever body parts.


House rules would of course belong in a thread in the House Rules sub-forum.