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Old 03-07-2018, 09:22 PM   #21
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

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That's a pretty slick summation of exactly the way it was back then! ;-)
Thank you JVL. I think it's one of those situations that a person would need to live through - as we did - to really get it.

However, now that I think about: "a sweet-smelling Houri Fan-dancer",... from,.. AUSTIN, TX ?!?

ROFL!!!!!
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Old 03-07-2018, 10:37 PM   #22
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Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

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Definitely going to be interested in quality programmed adventure (solo scenario, whatever you calll it) submissions. This will be true regardless of the format of the first re-release.

Of course, this means we have to revive our submissions procedures, since we have not been an active market for freelance work for several years now - too much in the pipeline already.
Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, quality, quality, quality (ingenious ideas well-playtested) resulting in challenging replayability in the world of Cidri that can do the job without resorting to freakish creatures and banshees from hell, but rather more "real-world" characters and creatures, be they wolves, bears, snakes, rats, or interesting wizards or fighters in interesting puzzle-like environments (no small task!) with a sane and believable backstory.

There is a nightmarish load of juvenile and disturbing programmed adventures (in my opinion, and others besides) for various sub-standard RPGs with deplorable artwork and arguably disappointing scenes; my hopes are for clever, well-written, intriguing, and engaging modules that explore the possibilities of TFT that set it apart from the rest. :)

IMO, very good examples of this are present in original releases DT1, DT2, Orb Quest, ITL, and to slightly lesser degree Security Station and Grail Quest.
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Old 03-08-2018, 01:05 AM   #23
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Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

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I think it's more accurate to say that a lot of the work of selling the game is now having to happen before the game itself is on the market.
Understood.

Andrew, based on the current market condition and environment you have described, are you generally indicating focusing on a promotional campaign, as a premarketing strategy, which at the first-stage systemically attempts to create "a heavy buzz" at an underground/grass-roots level, building-up potential energy and consumer interest over time, with a mid-goal of generating a hunger with the broader-market consumer; and an end-goal strategy timed to when the product prints and ships, so that upon release, that same installed consumer demand will greet the product at the cash register and upon delivery?

Do I have your picture of the "work of selling" you indicated above accurate?

.
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Old 03-08-2018, 01:39 AM   #24
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

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Do I have your picture of the "work of selling" you indicated above accurate?
I don't know what the specific plans are. What you're describing would be a major marketing push in consultation with the TFT line editor, none of whom is me. But it sure sounds like a good thing to be doing, since we want this product to succeed.
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Old 03-08-2018, 01:55 AM   #25
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Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

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I don't know what the specific plans are. What you're describing would be a major marketing push in consultation with the TFT line editor, none of whom is me. But it sure sounds like a good thing to be doing, since we want this product to succeed.
Yes, as do we all Andrew, and so very much so!

So in what I laid-out in broad strokes as response, is that essentially the overview of the general strategic plan; irrespective of any specific details?

.
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:34 AM   #26
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

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Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, quality, quality, quality (ingenious ideas well-playtested) resulting in challenging replayability in the world of Cidri that can do the job without resorting to freakish creatures and banshees from hell, but rather more "real-world" characters and creatures, be they wolves, bears, snakes, rats, or interesting wizards or fighters in interesting puzzle-like environments (no small task!) with a sane and believable backstory.

There is a nightmarish load of juvenile and disturbing programmed adventures (in my opinion, and others besides) for various sub-standard RPGs with deplorable artwork and arguably disappointing scenes; my hopes are for clever, well-written, intriguing, and engaging modules that explore the possibilities of TFT that set it apart from the rest. :)

IMO, very good examples of this are present in original releases DT1, DT2, Orb Quest, ITL, and to slightly lesser degree Security Station and Grail Quest.
Actually that's what I don't want. I was disappointed in Tollenkar's lair because it used mostly human or natural adversaries. Even the limited selection of creatures contained in ITL had potential for many interesting encounters and I'd have liked more of that. It is a fantasy game after all.

I'd also avoid going too far down the solo/programmed adventure route. I'm probably in the minority in that view I know, but I'd rather see some good quality GM adventures.

And in a regular size!!!
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:51 AM   #27
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Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

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Actually that's what I don't want. I was disappointed in Tollenkar's lair because it used mostly human or natural adversaries. Even the limited selection of creatures contained in ITL had potential for many interesting encounters and I'd have liked more of that. It is a fantasy game after all.
Chris, did you GM Tollenkar's Lair, or did you take your trip to Landmaster Hall as a Player Character?

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I'd also avoid going too far down the solo/programmed adventure route. I'm probably in the minority in that view I know, but I'd rather see some good quality GM adventures.
How about having plenty of both?

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And in a regular size!!!
My grognard-eyes will second that.
.
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Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-08-2018 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 03-08-2018, 04:17 AM   #28
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

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Chris, did you GM Tollenkar's Lair, or did you take your trip to Landmaster Hall as a Player Character?



How about having plenty of both?



My grognard-eyes are second that.
.
Jim, I only have a scan of it but haven't run it. It just didn't interest me enough to make the effort sadly. It's possible I'm being unfair to it, but I was expecting a bit more "high fantasy". Perhaps because I've adapted my TFT to accommodate more of that sort of play it just didn't suit us.

I agree with plenty of both!!
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:27 AM   #29
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Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

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Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
Actually that's what I don't want. I was disappointed in Tollenkar's lair because it used mostly human or natural adversaries. Even the limited selection of creatures contained in ITL had potential for many interesting encounters and I'd have liked more of that. It is a fantasy game after all.

I'd also avoid going too far down the solo/programmed adventure route. I'm probably in the minority in that view I know, but I'd rather see some good quality GM adventures.

And in a regular size!!!
I agree re: solo/programmed adventures. While they can be very engaging, they are difficult for GMs to use. At the very least, a map with relevant paragraphs indexed should be available for GMs who want to run a group. (I created such a map for Death Test I/II and Grailquest, but lost them years ago.

Genuine adventure modules, in my opinion, would be better. Obviously, we'd love to have lots of both. But in a world of limited resources, priorities must be established.

I didn't have the same reaction as you to Tollenkar's Lair. I thought it was/is an excellent example of a plausible dungeon. But agreed, it is not a classic FRPG dungeon.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 03-08-2018 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:44 AM   #30
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

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Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
Jim, I only have a scan of it but haven't run it. It just didn't interest me enough to make the effort sadly. It's possible I'm being unfair to it, but I was expecting a bit more "high fantasy". Perhaps because I've adapted my TFT to accommodate more of that sort of play it just didn't suit us.

I agree with plenty of both!!
Sorry you didn't care for your read-thru of Tollenkar's Lair; Little Kess and his Thugs are a blast to beat-on LOL! - and the lower-levels are pretty tough depending on how many are in your party and how many points they are built on, etc.

If I recall correctly - and I may not be - Tollenkar's Lair's was also dual-designed to also serve as an illustrated learning-aid for new TFT GM's just getting started - as we all were at that time!

So why not take another look at it from a GM perspective, and see if there might be some meat you can steal and use elsewhere in your game-world.

Even the least-popular of the post-SJ Metagaming/Games Research Group TFT offerings had SOMETHING worth stealing,... I mean "re-purposing". LOL!

Speaking of re-purposing, I cannot tell you how many times I "re-purposed" sections of Tollenkar's Labyrinth. Wow! I would take sections of it - especially the "Double Map" inside the center-section of In The Labyrinth - and I would cut that place up vertically, horizontally, and every-which-way - and that was during the days of REAL "Cut and Paste". LOL! Need a Caverns accessed by tunnels? BAM! Need a stand alone Cave? BAM! Need a section of Catacombs? BAM! Need a Bandit's Hideout? BA,.. oh wait, it's already a Bandit Hide-out. LOL!

Anyway, you can just grab what you need from sections you like and forget the rest. So many combinations; and I only got caught twice doing this by players.

The point is, there is some real gaming-value there beyond the surface, if you dig (or cut and paste).

Here is another cool thing you can do with Tollenkar's Lair: Take the existing module, and rip-out (figuratively, not literally) all the things in there which are NOT to your liking and do not fit into your vision of what you wished it was. I am talking: Background, Rumors, Characters, Monsters, Traps, Descriptions; if you don't like anything in it as written, out it goes!

BUT then, go back and put back in your own stuff - how YOU would do it - as either part of a High-Fantasy Adventure which satisfies you, OR, how YOU would have presented Tollenkar's Lair originally, and fill it back up AND MAKE IT BETTER.

Who knows Chris, you may find your own re-write of "Tollenkar: The Redo" or "Tolkien-arh" (if you want to go High-Fantasy) is so good; you might try selling it back to SJ !!! LOL!

Now THAT would be a GREAT TFT story LOL!

Either way, ENJOY!
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