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Old 03-06-2018, 01:36 PM   #11
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?

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Originally Posted by Jackal View Post
... BUT we also split attributes from pools like HP or mana. Stats no longer increased. Made character builds much more interesting.
In what ways did characters improve with experience?
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Old 03-06-2018, 01:55 PM   #12
Jackal
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New England
Default Re: Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?

Used talents for that.

We added five "Mastery" talents: Arms Mastery, Arcane Mastery, Self Mastery, Talent Mastery & Discipline Mastery.

They were cheap and could be "learned" as often as wished. Each provided a bonus to, respectively, one weapon, spell, HP/mana pool, talent or Discipline.

(We grouped thematically-related talents & spells into Disciplines which granted a bonus to figures specializing in it.)

It was very effective and forced players to choose between learning a new ability, getting better at a skill, or improving their resilience.

We also allowed figures to use "higher IQ/DX" spells & weapons, but at a reduced chance to cast/hit. And figures had no more limit on the number of spells or talents they knew than they had on weapons they knew, so they could learn more without becoming Conan the Wizard.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:24 PM   #13
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?

Nice. I like the idea of increasing ability in some talents rather than raising a whole attribute (the only part I wouldn't choose is adding hit points unless there were a narrow limit).

By "higher IQ/DX" spells & weapons, did you mean to write "higher IQ/ST", or did you add weapons with minDX? If you meant minST, did you do something different from the Advanced Melee rule for that (-1 adjDX per ST below minST, -1 damage per 2 ST below minST)?
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:33 PM   #14
Jackal
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New England
Default Re: Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Nice. I like the idea of increasing ability in some talents rather than raising a whole attribute (the only part I wouldn't choose is adding hit points unless there were a narrow limit).

By "higher IQ/DX" spells & weapons, did you mean to write "higher IQ/ST", or did you add weapons with minDX? If you meant minST, did you do something different from the Advanced Melee rule for that (-1 adjDX per ST below minST, -1 damage per 2 ST below minST)?
Yes, sorry, I wrote too quickly. minST, not minDX.

And yes, the Self Mastery HP/mana bonus was very narrow. But the trade-offs were interesting in any case.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:38 PM   #15
Jackal
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New England
Default Re: Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?

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... or did you add weapons with minDX? ...
Min DX for weapons? Hmmmm. What an interesting idea. I wonder how that might work?

Might be needlessly complicating; but it could make for some interesting character choices.

We did add minST for armour. Seemed only fitting, and it prevented impregnable low ST, high DX fencers. So annoying!
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:16 PM   #16
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?

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And yes, the Self Mastery HP/mana bonus was very narrow. But the trade-offs were interesting in any case.
Sure, I think a certain amount of that is fine, and good for being able to make someone big and somewhat durable but not necessarily all that strong. I just wouldn't want people adding large piles of hit points as a regular way to become hard to kill (as is the norm in so many other games).
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:26 PM   #17
Jackal
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New England
Default Re: Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?

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Sure, I think a certain amount of that is fine, and good for being able to make someone big and somewhat durable but not necessarily all that strong. I just wouldn't want people adding large piles of hit points as a regular way to become hard to kill (as is the norm in so many other games).
Agreed 100%. Better to cut it than to risk derailing the entire game.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:14 AM   #18
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
As magic is governed by IQ, why are Wizards rolling to cast spells against their DX like a fighter in a Melee, and not against their IQ stat?

Does it not stand to reason that since magic is a thing of mental concentration ... - so that 3d6 vs IQ should logically be the basic roll for successful spell-casting; with the Missile and Thrown Spells (at a target hex), requiring a subsequent 3d6 vs DX to hit their target-at-distance.

Except in cases of Summoning and Creation spells, should not then the proper sequence be: 1) roll 3d6 vs IQ to successfully cast, and then, 2) roll 3d6 vs DX to project and successfully hit a target?

Furthermore, why are wizards not powering their spells by expending IQ Fatigue; as opposed to ST Fatigue?

That concept would certainly eliminate the complaints about the high-ST "Wizard Tank" characters who develop over time. ...
Hi all, Jim.
I am pretty sure that it was designed this way so that all characters had reasons to take all three attributes. Wizards need ST for the fatigue ST to cast the spells. Fighters need IQ to get cool talents (both for the base IQ and the memory points). And everyone needs DX.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:22 AM   #19
Jim Kane
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi all, Jim.
I am pretty sure that it was designed this way so that all characters had reasons to take all three attributes. Wizards need ST for the fatigue ST to cast the spells. Fighters need IQ to get cool talents (both for the base IQ and the memory points). And everyone needs DX.

Warm regards, Rick.
Yes, in deed Rick. But my post - which was truncated in your repost - was stating an alternate handling of wizards et al, and with the concluding question, was actually asking for feedback as to why my stated perspective was not a logical approach; and was not seeking to understand why things were done the way they were.

The first "question" in the first paragraph was merely a device to get the reader curious enough to read the hypothesis, supporting paragraphs, and conclusion, and then, answer the REAL question - being located at the end of the post - again, being the part missing from your repost, wherein you ended-up answering the non-question-question.

Hence, that part left-off from your repost:

"Where am I off-base here?" - JK

From below:

""Default Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?
As magic is governed by IQ, why are Wizards rolling to cast spells against their DX like a fighter in a Melee, and not against their IQ stat?

Does it not stand to reason that since magic is a thing of mental concentration and magical knowledge which determines the ability of a wizard to reliably manifest his will from his thought-forms - as it is the power of the mind that determines the successful casting of a spell, and not the physical adroitness of a character - so that 3d6 vs IQ should logically be the basic roll for successful spell-casting; with the Missile and Thrown Spells (at a target hex), requiring a subsequent 3d6 vs DX to hit their target-at-distance.

Except in cases of Summoning and Creation spells, should not then the proper sequence be: 1) roll 3d6 vs IQ to successfully cast, and then, 2) roll 3d6 vs DX to project and successfully hit a target?

Furthermore, why are wizards not powering their spells by expending IQ Fatigue; as opposed to ST Fatigue?

That concept would certainly eliminate the complaints about the high-ST "Wizard Tank" characters who develop over time.

Where am I off-base here?
"

---

With that all sorted out, I would really like to learn your thoughts to THAT question.

Thanks Rick; looking forward to learning your thoughts.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-21-2018 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:49 AM   #20
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Yes, in deed Rick. But my post - which was truncated in your repost - ...

Thanks Rick; looking forward to learning your thoughts.

JK
Hi Jim,
I trim away the parts of a post that I'm not discussing. It makes it easier to follow my argument, and shortens what people have to read.

I think your system would work (the game could be written to make such a system work, I am sure). It would tend to result in dump stats. ST in particular would not be bought much if wizards powered spells with fatigue IQ (fIQ) rather than fatigue ST (fST).

For that reason I would not use it in my campaign.


However, I think it would be interesting if different flavours of magic used different types of fatigue to power them. For example, let us say that divinations, clairvoyance, clairaudience, Reveal / Conceal, and other information spells were all powered by fIQ. Normal spells use fST. A spell that attacked someone spying on you might use BOTH fST and fIQ!

So one wizard (with a very high IQ) would be tempted to learn more and more information and spying spells, where as a low IQ but high ST wizard would be tempted by Summon 1 hex Spider and Fire spells.

This would make a cool dynamic, I think.

Warm regards, Rick.
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