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Old 02-25-2018, 06:53 PM   #1
Steve Jackson
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Default To-Hit Roll in Advanced Wizard

Is it my imagination, or is an actual definition of how to hit with a spell NOT FOUND in Advanced Wizard? I would expect to see it near the top of Casting Spells, before the descriptions of the four basic spell types.

I'm working from a PDF - I seem to have zero actual copies left of Advanced Wiz and Advanced Melee - but it was a good scan. There couldn't be a whole section missing from page 3. So either it is somewhere really stupid, or it's not there and nobody ever made a big deal about it because they knew the rule already from Wizard.

??
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:11 PM   #2
Kirk
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Default Re: To-Hit Roll in Advanced Wizard

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Is it my imagination, or is an actual definition of how to hit with a spell NOT FOUND in Advanced Wizard? I would expect to see it near the top of Casting Spells, before the descriptions of the four basic spell types.

I'm working from a PDF - I seem to have zero actual copies left of Advanced Wiz and Advanced Melee - but it was a good scan. There couldn't be a whole section missing from page 3. So either it is somewhere really stupid, or it's not there and nobody ever made a big deal about it because they knew the rule already from Wizard.

??
I have my original copies still! I see under Types of Spells and then Missile Spells, for example, a procedure, being "(1) Announce target...He then makes his "to hit" roll". Under the Thrown Spells section, it talks about adjustments to DX, with the implication that that is the attribute one uses to determine success when casting a spell.

So to your point, with my quick review of my copy of the rules, it is very much implied throughout the DX adjustment phrasings, if not outright declared. But perhaps a quick mention more directly that DX is the attribute to use to determine success under "How to Cast Spells" would clear things up.

Last edited by Kirk; 02-25-2018 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:19 PM   #3
Steve Jackson
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Default Re: To-Hit Roll in Advanced Wizard

It's good to be explicit with a basic game mechanic :) If it's really not in there, I should just block copy the following from Wizard:

ROLLING TO HIT
The “to hit” roll is the basic roll in Wizard. It is a roll made on three dice, to determine whether a figure “hit” – that is, whether its spell worked, its staff or sword struck, etc.
In order to hit, a figure must roll its adjusted DX or less on 3 dice. All DX adjustments are cumulative. Starting with a DX of 11, for example, a figure might have -2 for range to the target, -2 for having been severely wounded last turn, and +3 because another wizard had cast a 3-point Aid spell on it . . . thus, its adjusted DX that turn would be 10, and it would need to roll 10 or less on the 3 dice. After making a “to hit” roll, the figure rolls again for damage if it hit with a weapon or with a missile spell. Other kinds of spell have various effects when they hit – see below.
Some rolls have special significance. When you roll to hit, a 3, 4, or 5 is an automatic hit, and 16, 17, or 18 is an automatic miss, regardless of DX. Furthermore:
A roll of 3 means triple effect. Missile spells and physical attacks do triple damage. Creation spells produce three of whatever you wanted. Other spells have triple effect in any one way the player chooses: three times as long, or three times as powerful, or any other tripling. (You cannot have a spell affect the original target figure and two others, though.) There is no extra ST cost then or later for the triple effect.
A roll of 4 means double effect – as above, but only doubled.
A roll of 5 is an automatic hit, whatever your DX.
A roll of 16 is an automatic miss, whatever your DX.
A roll of 17 is an automatic miss, and the wizard loses the full ST cost of the spell. The spell fizzles immediately, even if it was a missile spell.
A roll of 18 is an automatic miss/fizzle, as above, and the wizard still loses the full ST cost of the spell. In addition, the shock knocks him down.
For weapons and staffs: a roll of 17 is a dropped weapon/staff. A roll of 18 is a broken weapon/staff.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:34 PM   #4
Kirk
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Default Re: To-Hit Roll in Advanced Wizard

If space is not an issue, and AW doesn't require ownership of Wizard, that certainly would facilitate look-ups on how spell casting is done!
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:09 AM   #5
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: To-Hit Roll in Advanced Wizard

Hi Steve. It is known. Many of those basic details are not mentioned in Advanced Wizard, such as what DX even is, or how to roll dice and compare their sum to an attribute, or many of the automatic success/failure results. Some but not all of the details are mentioned under the specific spell types (e.g. the double/triple damage results are mentioned for missile spells but only when failing a roll to miss, not on purpose...).

I have physical copies of original and later printings (1982) of Advanced Wizard and Advanced Melee. You're probably not missing anything, but note the "BUYER CAUTION" on page 1, which points out that Advanced Wizard in particular:

Quote:
[Advanced Wizard] cannot be easily used by itself. Advanced Wizard should not be attempted by those not already familiar with the MicroGame THE FANTASY TRIP: Wizard.
Things like what hexes and phases and options are are in Advanced Melee (which can completely replace Melee) but not in Advanced Wizard.

By the way, I don't know of any actual revisions in the revised 1982 printings of AM and AW (typo not fixed), except the inside cover (which is mostly advertising other TFT products) and page 1 which (hilariously switches) on Advanced Melee 1982 warns about Advanced Wizard, and on Advanced Wizard 1982 warns about Advanced Melee (even though Advanced Melee is a pretty complete game by itself except for not having counters and not explaining how to create characters), and they annoyingly removed the all the credits and added a random bonus quote from "Ulysses" by Alfred, Lord Tennyson.

Last edited by Skarg; 02-26-2018 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 02-26-2018, 01:28 AM   #6
ak_aramis
 
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Default Re: To-Hit Roll in Advanced Wizard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Is it my imagination, or is an actual definition of how to hit with a spell NOT FOUND in Advanced Wizard? I would expect to see it near the top of Casting Spells, before the descriptions of the four basic spell types.

I'm working from a PDF - I seem to have zero actual copies left of Advanced Wiz and Advanced Melee - but it was a good scan. There couldn't be a whole section missing from page 3. So either it is somewhere really stupid, or it's not there and nobody ever made a big deal about it because they knew the rule already from Wizard.

??
I expected any product with "advanced" to not include the basic, so it's absence was only mildly annoying.
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Old 02-26-2018, 11:18 AM   #7
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: To-Hit Roll in Advanced Wizard

That's funny! The first wave of table top rpg's were definitely published in a looser sort of way...
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Old 02-26-2018, 07:42 PM   #8
JLV
 
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Default Re: To-Hit Roll in Advanced Wizard

It was kind of an odd approach at the time, and I suspect was at least partially an artifact of the way the books were actually published, as opposed to the way they were intended to be published, but both Advanced Melee and Advanced Wizard assumed that you already knew and had Melee and Wizard. Of the two, Advanced Wizard was more guilty of this approach than Advanced Melee was, IMO.

Still, it was clear to me as a purchaser at the time that I wasn't getting a "complete game" with the Advanced Melee/Advanced Wizard books -- but rather a significant set of add-ons to take the basic games of Melee and Wizard to the next level and let us actually play a full-on RPG with them. The reason it was clear though, was that I'd been playing Melee and Wizard for a couple of years by then and was impatiently awaiting the new material. Were I just seeing it them cold-turkey in a hobby store magazine rack for the first time in 1981, I'd have been quite confused, I think.

I have to be honest here; I thought that Metagaming's advertisements of TFT later on (say 1982 on) were verging on "dishonest" since they implied you didn't NEED Melee or Wizard to play the advanced versions, and it was quite clear you did if you wanted to fully understand how to play the games. I also thought it was poor customer relations tactics, in that it required additional purchases from an audience that tended to be somewhat restricted in disposable income (we were in our teens, for crying out loud) in order to get a fully usable game -- which tended to put me off a bit. It's one of the reasons I started looking more askance at Metagaming back then.

I sincerely hope that you fix that with Advanced Wizard and Advanced Melee in the new editions (ideally you'd sell them as a set -- both Melee and Advanced Melee, together in one ziplock bag or box, so players would have a complete game going in...).
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Old 03-02-2018, 11:31 AM   #9
Charles G.
 
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Default Re: To-Hit Roll in Advanced Wizard

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
It was kind of an odd approach at the time, and I suspect was at least partially an artifact of the way the books were actually published, as opposed to the way they were intended to be published, but both Advanced Melee and Advanced Wizard assumed that you already knew and had Melee and Wizard. Of the two, Advanced Wizard was more guilty of this approach than Advanced Melee was, IMO.

Still, it was clear to me as a purchaser at the time that I wasn't getting a "complete game" with the Advanced Melee/Advanced Wizard books -- but rather a significant set of add-ons to take the basic games of Melee and Wizard to the next level and let us actually play a full-on RPG with them. The reason it was clear though, was that I'd been playing Melee and Wizard for a couple of years by then and was impatiently awaiting the new material. Were I just seeing it them cold-turkey in a hobby store magazine rack for the first time in 1981, I'd have been quite confused, I think.

I have to be honest here; I thought that Metagaming's advertisements of TFT later on (say 1982 on) were verging on "dishonest" since they implied you didn't NEED Melee or Wizard to play the advanced versions, and it was quite clear you did if you wanted to fully understand how to play the games. I also thought it was poor customer relations tactics, in that it required additional purchases from an audience that tended to be somewhat restricted in disposable income (we were in our teens, for crying out loud) in order to get a fully usable game -- which tended to put me off a bit. It's one of the reasons I started looking more askance at Metagaming back then.

I sincerely hope that you fix that with Advanced Wizard and Advanced Melee in the new editions (ideally you'd sell them as a set -- both Melee and Advanced Melee, together in one ziplock bag or box, so players would have a complete game going in...).
Actually, I think the real problem was that TFT was originally supposed to be one big rule book, but then was dismembered into a separate Advanced Melee, Advanced Wizard, and ITL. This may be part of the discontinuity one sees.
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Old 03-02-2018, 10:09 PM   #10
JLV
 
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Default Re: To-Hit Roll in Advanced Wizard

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Originally Posted by Charles G. View Post
Actually, I think the real problem was that TFT was originally supposed to be one big rule book, but then was dismembered into a separate Advanced Melee, Advanced Wizard, and ITL. This may be part of the discontinuity one sees.
I actually SAID that in my first sentence, you know...
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