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Old 02-05-2018, 02:40 PM   #1
woweed
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Default WI:A Different World

A concept for an alternate setting. In this world, things went...wonky sometime in the late-90s. The first sign of things going...odd was when Andrealphus redeemed. The first ever Redemption of a Demon Prince occured in late 1996. He smashed his own heart, and came before the Council. He was soson re-appointed as Archangel of Love. It was an earth-shaking event, with much debate and confusion, but he Redeemed. And he wouldn't be the last. In 1998, Nybass followed him, becoming Archangel of Communication. Again, lots of chaos, but, ultimately, it worked out. Finally, in the year 2000, came the big kahuna. The creature whose mission had finally succeeded. Kobal Redeemed, having, unbeknownst to anyone but him and God, helped get the other two to redeem along the way. The Archangel of Laughter was born. What now? What changes with Hell suddenly down three staff members? How is the War impacted? Your thoughts?
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:11 AM   #2
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Default Re: WI:A Different World

the most likely result? Asmodeus goes on a rampage killing any suspects until the other DPs realise that he will never stop, and introduce him to his own guillotine.
Think Thermidor.
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Old 02-06-2018, 04:40 AM   #3
woweed
 
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Default Re: WI:A Different World

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Originally Posted by Whitelaughter View Post
the most likely result? Asmodeus goes on a rampage killing any suspects until the other DPs realise that he will never stop, and introduce him to his own guillotine.
Think Thermidor.
That's definitely gonna happen, but it only makes things worse for Hell. Half their staff is now either turned or dead.
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Old 02-09-2018, 06:25 AM   #4
Jason
 
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Default Re: WI:A Different World

Hell has always been about quantity over quality. Lucifer might double down on that, so we suddenly see a ton of Word-bound elevated to Princedoms, often in conflicting areas, the general atmosphere of backbiting and paranoia preventing any one Prince from getting too big to fear losing.

On the other hand, I can certainly picture Lucifer just sitting back quietly and smiling gently. Asmodeus has to go either way, whether by his own hand or as a symbolic punishment, but we might just see him (and The Game as an institution) replaced by elevating the Demon of Pacts to a princedom. Everyone's a little confused that Malphas gets spared any rancor, and a much more quiet paranoia eventually settles as folks start muttering that Lucifer planned the whole thing himself.
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Old 02-10-2018, 12:37 AM   #5
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Default Re: WI:A Different World

Personally, I think it would result in Lucifer doing a little recruiting from the other side himself; especially among those Archangels with a thing for fairness.

After all, here are three demons that defied God's will, wreaked untold havoc, and were let back into heaven with little more than a slap on the wrist and significantly more authority than they had when they left.

Dominic, Marc, Gabriel, Lithroy and Blandine strike me as the set most at risk. I doubt Lucifer could get all of them, but one Fall and one self-exile would still serve to unsettle heaven and keep it from completely taking advantage of the situation.

I also have a few pet theories about what might go on inside hell proper. For example, I think Irony would take over for Dark Humor without much fuss or bother. But on the whole I like Jason's ideas.
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Old 02-10-2018, 07:41 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
Personally, I think it would result in Lucifer doing a little recruiting from the other side himself; especially among those Archangels with a thing for fairness.

After all, here are three demons that defied God's will, wreaked untold havoc, and were let back into heaven with little more than a slap on the wrist and significantly more authority than they had when they left.

Dominic, Marc, Gabriel, Lithroy and Blandine strike me as the set most at risk. I doubt Lucifer could get all of them, but one Fall and one self-exile would still serve to unsettle heaven and keep it from completely taking advantage of the situation.

I also have a few pet theories about what might go on inside hell proper. For example, I think Irony would take over for Dark Humor without much fuss or bother. But on the whole I like Jason's ideas.
Hmmm...Dominic probably wouldn't Fall, if only because, in my theory, he'd be the one who had to deal with the "paperwork" of the various Redemption in the first place. He'd also be the one with the ability to shut them down if anything went wrong. He'd probably be pretty stable, especially now that The Game is gone. On the other hand, I could totally see Marc being at risk, or, a least, being a lot more busy, especially since Greed would probably be a lot more powerful, with half of Hell's staff dead or gone. David might also be pretty freaking suspicious of the whole thing, worried that Malpas may have a role in all this. I could definitely see either of them Falling or going into exile. Gabriel...I admit, with a major coup-de-grace like this, Heaven may try and forge ahead with taking out even more Princes. If they take out Belial, that could stabilize her. Speaking of which, the Peace Faction has probably gotten a major boost from the whole "lambs returning to the fold." thing.
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Old 02-10-2018, 12:13 PM   #7
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Hmmm...Dominic probably wouldn't Fall, if only because, in my theory, he'd be the one who had to deal with the "paperwork" of the various Redemption in the first place. He'd also be the one with the ability to shut them down if anything went wrong. He'd probably be pretty stable, especially now that The Game is gone. On the other hand, I could totally see Marc being at risk, or, a least, being a lot more busy, especially since Greed would probably be a lot more powerful, with half of Hell's staff dead or gone. David might also be pretty freaking suspicious of the whole thing, worried that Malpas may have a role in all this. I could definitely see either of them Falling or going into exile. Gabriel...I admit, with a major coup-de-grace like this, Heaven may try and forge ahead with taking out even more Princes. If they take out Belial, that could stabilize her. Speaking of which, the Peace Faction has probably gotten a major boost from the whole "lambs returning to the fold." thing.
So here was my reasoning to pick these 5:

Dominic would be in danger because he questions the Judgement of accepting Demon Princes into positions of high authority within heaven without doing enough to punish them for their transgressions. This strikes me as particularly likely if their redemption comes through the intervention of the Seraphim Council or another Archangel rather than a direct act of G-d. I agree that he would be unlikely to fall, but I could see him going into self-imposed exile while he attempts to judge both heaven and hell from an outside vantage point.

Marc's main point of risk would be similar to Dominic's. What was the exchange for bringing the Demon Princes into heaven? How is immediately promoting them over angels who have remained loyal at all fair? Then again I have a rather dim view of trade in today's world, so my politics tend to interfere with my fair evaluation of Marc, I often consider him darker than cannon.

Gabriel is also in this vein - she's the one who punishes abusers, and the Princes of Hell have been nothing if not abusive. Giving them a pass seems like it goes against her nature regardless of whether or not there's a Belial harming her cool. Also, unless you're proposing the complete capitulation of hell (in which case, congratulations! time to blow your horn and gather your winnings) I'm not particularly on board with the idea that three princes fleeing means three more die (especially if they did not particularly rely on any of the turncoats for support). Given the defectors, Gluttony is the Prince I'd suspect to be at risk of being picked off.

Lithroy would only be in danger if the redemptions undermined his idea of Truth and Revelation. That's a GM call. Of all the Archangels on this list, he's the one I think would be least in danger (unless Gabriel fell).

Blandine is the only one who I think is endangered by something other than principles. I think she'd want Andrealphus to bring her lover back, and if Andre couldn't, she'd retreat further into the Marches and become more of a neutral power. Her old duties would probably be split among several superiors. Assuming none fall or are otherwise compromised, I'd use Khalid, Gabriel, and Lithroy.

David does not strike me as particularly likely to fall. If he's had one recurring fault, it has been his inability to suspect treachery among those "on his team."

===

All that said, this is your elseworld. Since we seem to be coming from very different viewpoints, I wanted to lay out my logic, but feel free to chuck these thoughts out the window if they don't fit your game.
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Old 02-10-2018, 12:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: WI:A Different World

Now, going the other way. If we assume
  • Andrealphus Redeems
  • Kobal Redeems
  • Nybbas Redeems
  • Asmodeus is Killed
  • Belial is Killed
  • No Archangels Die, Fall, or are Outcast
  • The First Trumpet Does Not Sound

Here's how I'd expect hell to reorganize:

The Principality of Lust is remade the Principality of Abuse under a newly promoted Prince.

The Principality of Dark Humor is exiled from Shal Mari; the survivors are mostly disbursed to Malphas and Kronos.

The Principality of Media continues to operate apace "without" a Demon Prince. Instead one of Vapula's AI's takes over the day to day administration of Perdition. Whether or not this makes the AI a Prince in its own right remains a subject of debate.

Alaemon slides smoothly into Asmodeus' place, almost as if he anticipated the other Superior's fall from grace.

Either Haagenti or Valefor devours the remnants of Belial's power (depending on whether you view the current fire problems a resulting more from rampant consumption or from climate change).

Mammon steps up to take a larger role in the world (in my games he's pretty much never been a minor prince, he was just pretending to get the other princes to let down their guard)

Eight to twelve new Minor Princes are named and left to prove for themselves whether or not they are worthy of managing a full Principality.
Possible candidates:
  • Prejudice
  • Apathy
  • Wrath
  • Vainglory
  • Envy
  • Bigotry
  • Poverty
  • Bureaucracy
  • Mockery
  • Conquest
  • Joylessness
  • Famine
  • Ignorance
  • Malice
  • Obsession
  • Tyranny
  • The Void
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Last edited by Cooper; 02-10-2018 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:08 PM   #9
woweed
 
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Default Re: WI:A Different World

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
So here was my reasoning to pick these 5:

Dominic would be in danger because he questions the Judgement of accepting Demon Princes into positions of high authority within heaven without doing enough to punish them for their transgressions. This strikes me as particularly likely if their redemption comes through the intervention of the Seraphim Council or another Archangel rather than a direct act of G-d. I agree that he would be unlikely to fall, but I could see him going into self-imposed exile while he attempts to judge both heaven and hell from an outside vantage point.

Marc's main point of risk would be similar to Dominic's. What was the exchange for bringing the Demon Princes into heaven? How is immediately promoting them over angels who have remained loyal at all fair? Then again I have a rather dim view of trade in today's world, so my politics tend to interfere with my fair evaluation of Marc, I often consider him darker than cannon.

Gabriel is also in this vein - she's the one who punishes abusers, and the Princes of Hell have been nothing if not abusive. Giving them a pass seems like it goes against her nature regardless of whether or not there's a Belial harming her cool. Also, unless you're proposing the complete capitulation of hell (in which case, congratulations! time to blow your horn and gather your winnings) I'm not particularly on board with the idea that three princes fleeing means three more die (especially if they did not particularly rely on any of the turncoats for support). Given the defectors, Gluttony is the Prince I'd suspect to be at risk of being picked off.

Lithroy would only be in danger if the redemptions undermined his idea of Truth and Revelation. That's a GM call. Of all the Archangels on this list, he's the one I think would be least in danger (unless Gabriel fell).

Blandine is the only one who I think is endangered by something other than principles. I think she'd want Andrealphus to bring her lover back, and if Andre couldn't, she'd retreat further into the Marches and become more of a neutral power. Her old duties would probably be split among several superiors. Assuming none fall or are otherwise compromised, I'd use Khalid, Gabriel, and Lithroy.

David does not strike me as particularly likely to fall. If he's had one recurring fault, it has been his inability to suspect treachery among those "on his team."

===

All that said, this is your elseworld. Since we seem to be coming from very different viewpoints, I wanted to lay out my logic, but feel free to chuck these thoughts out the window if they don't fit your game.
Hmmm...You make a good point. I was picturing the Redemptions coming through direct act of god, so the Dominic point is null. Marc and Gabriel's motives, I could see. Also, yeah, I agree, Hag's gonna get picked-off quick. Also, I like the idea on Beladine. As for David, my thinking was that, essentially, just because these three are theoretically Redeemed, doesn't mean he automatically considers html on his team. Plus, he's suspicious, like the Demons, of Malphas being untouched in all this.
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:14 PM   #10
woweed
 
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Default Re: WI:A Different World

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
Now, going the other way. If we assume
  • Andrealphus Redeems
  • Kobal Redeems
  • Nybbas Redeems
  • Asmodeus is Killed
  • Belial is Killed
  • No Archangels Die, Fall, or are Outcast
  • The First Trumpet Does Not Sound

Here's how I'd expect hell to reorganize:

The Principality of Lust is remade the Principality of Abuse under a newly promoted Prince.

The Principality of Dark Humor is exiled from Shal Mari; the survivors are mostly disbursed to Malphas and Kronos.

The Principality of Media continues to operate apace "without" a Demon Prince. Instead one of Vapula's AI's takes over the day to day administration of Perdition. Whether or not this makes the AI a Prince in its own right remains a subject of debate.

Alaemon slides smoothly into Asmodeus' place, almost as if he anticipated the other Superior's fall from grace.

Either Haagenti or Valefor devours the remnants of Belial's power (depending on whether you view the current fire problems a resulting more from rampant consumption or from climate change).

Mammon steps up to take a larger role in the world (in my games he's pretty much never been a minor prince, he was just pretending to get the other princes to let down their guard)

Eight to twelve new Minor Princes are named and left to prove for themselves whether or not they are worthy of managing a full Principality.
Possible candidates:
  • Prejudice
  • Apathy
  • Wrath
  • Vainglory
  • Envy
  • Bigotry
  • Poverty
  • Bureaucracy
  • Mockery
  • Conquest
  • Joylessness
  • Famine
  • Ignorance
  • Malice
  • Obsession
  • Tyranny
  • The Void
Nice and detailed. I like it. However, what would you expect in THIS case?
. The three Redeptions happen.
. Haagenti, Belial, and Asmodeus die.
. Blandine goes into self-imposed exile.
. Marc Falls. Becomes Demon Prince of Famine.

Last edited by woweed; 02-10-2018 at 01:17 PM.
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