Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-17-2018, 06:52 PM   #11
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: The Economic System in TFT

Briefly wandering away from the topic, I used Trailblazer with good success as an economic system for Starfire.

(Or perhaps the other way around; you could say I used Starfire as a combat system for Trailblazer, so you could finally keep those annoying other players away from your rich planets -- unless, of course, they were motivated enough to build their own warships.)

So that system does have some flexibility for adapting to other games.

Meanwhile, back in the TFT discussion...
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2018, 11:41 PM   #12
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: The Economic System in TFT

Perhaps it would be nice to have a general guideline for creating a job.

A dodgy example: Ragnar says he would like to get a job as a Viking raider. The GM and player discuss it and agree the job will be dangerous (14+), educational (5-), that the character must supply their own equipment, and that it will require Shield, at least three other IQ points worth of weapon talents and Seamanship. Obviously he can only get this job in a place Vikings live, or at least visit. By some magic formula they conclude this job fits the guidelines and will pay $145 a week.

This isn't a great example because it's probably handled well enough by other jobs but you get the idea.

I've always thought the entry-level wizard job could distinguish between Assistant (gets money, slower experience) and Apprentice (practically no money, faster experience). Another application would be creating jobs like "Sword-fighting student" that pay negative, rather than a separate rule for study or practice.
David Bofinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2018, 12:03 AM   #13
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Default Re: The Economic System in TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Briefly wandering away from the topic, I used Trailblazer with good success as an economic system for Starfire.

(Or perhaps the other way around; you could say I used Starfire as a combat system for Trailblazer, so you could finally keep those annoying other players away from your rich planets -- unless, of course, they were motivated enough to build their own warships.)

So that system does have some flexibility for adapting to other games.

Meanwhile, back in the TFT discussion...
Ha! I used WarpWar for the same exact purpose! In fact, it was one of the most requested games in my original gaming group back in the 80's -- they called "Space Robber Barons" and did everything you can imagine in terms of robbing, raiding, stealing, undercutting, smuggling, and every kind of nefarious activity there was! Some of them even ran cargoes as their primary business! ;-)

For TFT purposes, I did simplify it a bit (when it comes to supply and demand, especially) since the primary purpose of the game was fantasy adventure, not mercantilism...
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2018, 12:05 AM   #14
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Default Re: The Economic System in TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
Perhaps it would be nice to have a general guideline for creating a job.

A dodgy example: Ragnar says he would like to get a job as a Viking raider. The GM and player discuss it and agree the job will be dangerous (14+), educational (5-), that the character must supply their own equipment, and that it will require Shield, at least three other IQ points worth of weapon talents and Seamanship. Obviously he can only get this job in a place Vikings live, or at least visit. By some magic formula they conclude this job fits the guidelines and will pay $145 a week.

This isn't a great example because it's probably handled well enough by other jobs but you get the idea.

I've always thought the entry-level wizard job could distinguish between Assistant (gets money, slower experience) and Apprentice (practically no money, faster experience). Another application would be creating jobs like "Sword-fighting student" that pay negative, rather than a separate rule for study or practice.
That last isn't a bad idea -- it would get rid of a whole section of rules and simplify the system quite a bit!
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2018, 09:48 AM   #15
ecz
 
ecz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: The Economic System in TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Good idea for a thread. I am passionate about games that have well developed support for campaign play outside of murdering things, so I've put a lot of work into puffing up this side of my house rules for TFT. In brief outline form, here are some things I think are valuable, positive additions:

•*Jobs that are fun (makes you excited to have a character that does that), mostly realistic ('Bailiff' is a medieval job; 'arcane archer' is not), and organized into hierarchical groups that will provide both a path for advancement and ready-made ideas for allies, rivals, contacts, etc. For example, my house ruled TFT has something like 150 jobs, most of which fall under a dozen-plus groups (guilds; city leaders; mercenary or other military bands; etc.).

• Some connection between the idea of a Job and social status, with some sort of tangible consequences for differences in status, beyond just wealth.

•*'Risk' rolls with more varied, interesting and balanced outcomes. Basically, a table of a dozen or so good things that happen when you roll well and a dozen or so bad things that happen when you roll badly

• Organize campaign play into weeks and months, where you perform 1 action of your choice per week, in addition to assumed job activities (chosen from a list of a couple dozen actions, like 'enchant an item', or 'practice a talent', or 'fight a duel', or 'invest in a venture', etc.), and you settle up finances, experience points, and resolve your 'risk' roll every month.

•*Provide a half dozen ways to bring in cash and property (earn, invest, embezzle, purchase, lease, trade, etc.) and a half dozen ways to lose cash and property (taxes, rents, etc.), tied to the schedule and actions of the campaign.

• Add a campaign encounter roll, to be resolved at the start or end of each monthly period.

•*Provide some sort of structured way to change jobs and move up the ladder of hierarchies, to provide goals to campaign play.

This can be accomplished mostly by re-organizing and carefully tending the rules in ITL rather than radically expanding them. It really doesn't take much page count to revise a job list and organize your thoughts about income, rents, taxes, etc. A table or two goes a long way here.

Also, a smart designer pays attention to examples of other games that do something really well. Flashing Blades, En Garde, Warhammer FRP and Traveller have nice treatments of things more or less like Jobs in TFT. En Garde! and the 'down time' rules from 5E D&D provide some ideas for weekly campaign actions. Original D&D, Chivalry and Sorcery and Traveller provide good fodder for finances and property in campaign play.
I mostly agree on the above.
I also prepared a list of different risks/rewards where the attribute gain or the damage was just one of the possible events.

Also I created complex rules for finding a job, mantaining it, and re-employ once the PCs left the job. I also created detailed rules for trials, jails, punishments...

As I mentioned above I also reduced the rate of the risks allowing a dice roll once a month.
I was satisfacted with these house rules at that time.

But now I believe things should and could be kept more simple.

For example I think we need less jobs, easy to learn rules for IQ rolls to find the job and mantain it when at risk.
The GM should adjust the odds/pays and be flexible when things are harder (for example it's impossible gain many $ working as master armourer in a small pacific village where everyone is farmer or a fisher).
No reason to create too elaborate rules when the system is flexible and GM/players have common sense.
The test 3/IQ once a month basically works pretty well. But it could be 4/IQ or 5/IQ if it's a job hard to find given the circumstances.

For a self-employer things are not so much different since also a petty thief must find an agreement with the local Guild to start his "job" and avoid problems.

But the most important thing is that jobs during a RPG like TFT should never take the place of the adventures and nobody should say: "well, I'll work for six months and then I'll buy that nice warhorse!"
Jobs are mostly for substistance in a hard fantasy world, as an excuse to find a plot for an adventure, and as filler during adventures when a PC is temporarily unavailable.

I understand who says that players like complex worlds and a pre-created rule for any situation, but TFT is not exactly a simulation of a Fantasy world and (IMHO) all we need is a solid set uf basic rules allowing everyone to move from it if someone wants to shape the universe in detail.

Steve, please give us the basic (updated) tools, we'll build our worlds!
ecz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2018, 10:22 AM   #16
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Default Re: The Economic System in TFT

I don't disagree that things should be simplified from what I used. Using it was eye-opening, but I'm equally sure there is a better way to do it than what I did.

And I also agree that the jobs/downtime rolls should never be a substitute for actual roleplaying. We used them to set up situations, and to cover time spent waiting for other party members to heal. The players had a blast with them, and "fun" is, after all the main point. If some character is going to insist on sitting in a job for six months to buy a warhorse, instead of going out adventuring for that same goal, I submit to you that the character has actually said "I'm retiring to a nice safe place," and should be replaced with a new character...

On the other hand, a nice macro-economic system, preferably something modular that can be used or ignored, and something simple that doesn't take more than 10 or 15 minutes for the GM to run at home (NOT around the table) would be a nice touch. It would go a long way to creating a local economy with some logic behind it as opposed to the more normal GM hand-wave that falls apart fairly quickly (Guilty!) when confronted with even a basic player question about certain prices, availability of certain items, where the local trade caravans go, and so on...
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2018, 11:45 AM   #17
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: The Economic System in TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecz View Post
... For example I think we need less jobs, ...
What does it help to list fewer jobs?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ecz View Post
...But the most important thing is that jobs during a RPG like TFT should never take the place of the adventures and nobody should say: "well, I'll work for six months and then I'll buy that nice warhorse!"
Jobs are mostly for substistance in a hard fantasy world, as an excuse to find a plot for an adventure, and as filler during adventures when a PC is temporarily unavailable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV
And I also agree that the jobs/downtime rolls should never be a substitute for actual roleplaying. We used them to set up situations, and to cover time spent waiting for other party members to heal. The players had a blast with them, and "fun" is, after all the main point. If some character is going to insist on sitting in a job for six months to buy a warhorse, instead of going out adventuring for that same goal, I submit to you that the character has actually said "I'm retiring to a nice safe place," and should be replaced with a new character...
Isn't that up to the GM and players to decide whether they want to allow PCs to spend months on a job, or not? Why would it be something to prohibit in general? A GM who doesn't want to pass six months can certainly start prompting more detailed play, or run adventures for other PCs, etc. My players in TFT really enjoyed the job rules for a while, trying out different ones and using them both to make money and as a way to learn about the game world. One of them was very excited about his career goal of being in a position to take bribes (inspired by the bribery rules in ITL). What does it hurt to have such things described?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ecz View Post
I understand who says that players like complex worlds and a pre-created rule for any situation, but TFT is not exactly a simulation of a Fantasy world and (IMHO) all we need is a solid set uf basic rules allowing everyone to move from it if someone wants to shape the universe in detail.
Hmm. That may be all that we (experienced GMs who read In The Labyrinth decades ago - or GURPS) need, but new players and players coming from other RPGs may have no concept that the world has jobs and that characters doing their jobs could have specifics laid out for them, and that PCs could spend some downtime doing such jobs, or that the GM might easily know how much NPCs make at their jobs, etc. To me, the economics rules are a valuable part of ITL's overall presentation of how to run a logical game world where things make some sense and have some answers and ways to game out situations other than "the GM makes something up or tells you you can't do that". I also don't see the value in removing it, since you can also ignore it.

The main issues I see are having someone (not named Steve, heh) review the numbers and odds, and fixing the "you get enough experience to grain an attribute, no matter how much that is" problem, and the generic damage consequence - which could just be one or two sentences saying to give 100 EP, and/or have the GM invent an appropriate challenging job situation, and play it out at whatever level of detail seems fun to the GM.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2018, 12:32 PM   #18
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Default Re: The Economic System in TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Isn't that up to the GM and players to decide whether they want to allow PCs to spend months on a job, or not? Why would it be something to prohibit in general? A GM who doesn't want to pass six months can certainly start prompting more detailed play, or run adventures for other PCs, etc. My players in TFT really enjoyed the job rules for a while, trying out different ones and using them both to make money and as a way to learn about the game world. One of them was very excited about his career goal of being in a position to take bribes (inspired by the bribery rules in ITL). What does it hurt to have such things described?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Hmm. That may be all that we (experienced GMs who read In The Labyrinth decades ago - or GURPS) need, but new players and players coming from other RPGs may have no concept that the world has jobs and that characters doing their jobs could have specifics laid out for them, and that PCs could spend some downtime doing such jobs, or that the GM might easily know how much NPCs make at their jobs, etc. To me, the economics rules are a valuable part of ITL's overall presentation of how to run a logical game world where things make some sense and have some answers and ways to game out situations other than "the GM makes something up or tells you you can't do that". I also don't see the value in removing it, since you can also ignore it.
It seems to me that these two quotes are arguing the exact opposite of each other. If an inexperienced player/GM doesn't realize that someone else is gaming the system due to lack of familiarity with both the system and roleplaying in general, there would be obvious value in suggesting that the GM reconsider things. If, on the other hand, the GM and players want to play it this way, go for it -- it's their game, after all.

More importantly, I was speaking about my own opinion (as I clearly stated) not making some overarching comment about the "one twue way" to play a game.
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2018, 02:53 PM   #19
ecz
 
ecz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: The Economic System in TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
What does it help to list fewer jobs?




Isn't that up to the GM and players to decide whether they want to allow PCs to spend months on a job, or not? Why would it be something to prohibit in general? A GM who doesn't want to pass six months can certainly start prompting more detailed play, or run adventures for other PCs, etc. My players in TFT really enjoyed the job rules for a while, trying out different ones and using them both to make money and as a way to learn about the game world. One of them was very excited about his career goal of being in a position to take bribes (inspired by the bribery rules in ITL). What does it hurt to have such things described?



Hmm. That may be all that we (experienced GMs who read In The Labyrinth decades ago - or GURPS) need, but new players and players coming from other RPGs may have no concept that the world has jobs and that characters doing their jobs could have specifics laid out for them, and that PCs could spend some downtime doing such jobs, or that the GM might easily know how much NPCs make at their jobs, etc. To me, the economics rules are a valuable part of ITL's overall presentation of how to run a logical game world where things make some sense and have some answers and ways to game out situations other than "the GM makes something up or tells you you can't do that". I also don't see the value in removing it, since you can also ignore it.

The main issues I see are having someone (not named Steve, heh) review the numbers and odds, and fixing the "you get enough experience to grain an attribute, no matter how much that is" problem, and the generic damage consequence - which could just be one or two sentences saying to give 100 EP, and/or have the GM invent an appropriate challenging job situation, and play it out at whatever level of detail seems fun to the GM.
I think it is pointless having eight variants of the same "military type" job for heroes and seven of the "wizardly type" carieer for wizards. No harm of course, but pages and efforts could be better used. I think that three levels per carieer are enough: basic, intermediate and high according the skils/talents of the PC . The Jobs table must stay, but should give more generic guidelines. GMs should not assign or negate a job just counting the number of "combat" talents/spells. Per RAW the PC first check if his talents conform to the list for a certain job, then he asks that job. Instead I imagine a system where the player first asks for a Job, than the GM checks if that job (or another similar) is available considering a lot of parameters set by the rules (including the talents of the PC). If I have time I'll publish in future exactly what I mean.

About the fact players and GM decides how spend time I fully agree. But if the jobs table coming with the rules is too favorable (as it is the current TFT one) we'll have players that spend too much time working to improve their characters attributes through risk rolls and earning an inordinate quantity of money.

If the jobs table is not so tempting ( less favorable events, low pays, less savings) we'll hardly have players asking to stay parked too long "to work hard in a safe place".
It's called "design for effect". I believe
ecz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2018, 10:46 PM   #20
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: The Economic System in TFT

Chiming in with JLV's post a page or so up, here are the titles of the campaign actions in my notes. Briefly, a campaign turn is 1 week, and you can either perform 1 simple action and move 1/2 your MA, or perform 1 complex action and move 0 or 1 hexes (20 km at Campaign scale). There are also some free actions, and your die roll for your job risk happens, plus a couple of other little details. Anyway, here are is the list you chose from (some have obvious meanings; others you'd have trouble interpreting without my notes):

Simple Actions
Adventure:
Buy Property
Carousing
Collect Taxes
Duel:
Errantry:
Gamble:
Grant Favor:
Loan Money:
Perform:
Pious Action:
Raid:
Pay or Collect Ransom:
Sell
Social Action:
Toady
Tournament:
War

Complex Actions
Amore
Call in Favor:
Clear land:
Construction
Court Spouse:
Create artwork
Diplomacy
Divest
Embezzle
Enchantment
Extort
Get Bearings
Gladiatorial Contest:
Go to Ground
Harvest
Heist
Hunt
Invest
Join Organization
Learn Language
Learn Spell
Make Contact
Medical care
Prospect (i.e., find natural resource):
Raise investment
Reconnoiter
Recruit
Recuperate
Research:
Scheme
Seek Favor
Seek Job:
Seek Loan
Seek Person
Stewardship:
Wedding
Work farmland
Work mine
larsdangly is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.