Steve Jackson Games Forums technical grappling, whole body CP and dodge malus
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 01-16-2018, 03:59 PM #1 Devil_Dante     Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Italy, Rome technical grappling, whole body CP and dodge malus hi everyone!! Asking for your help about control points and the malus they deal to dodge. I m trying to figure out if i have understood the mechanics right, especially the ones concerning whole body control and how everything fits togheter. For what i have understood, only the CP of neck and torso deal a malus to the dodge (and, of course, to resist to knockdown, because all rolls are quick contest, based on ST or skills). So, referring to a case where you are grappling an opponent's leg, for 10 CP, the referred control points on torso and head/neck will be 5 and 5. But, if your opponent tries to dodge, he has a total of 10 referred CP and thus -5 to ST and DX= -5 to dodge. Is it right?? Assuming so, let try to make it harder. Now i'm going to grapple both arms of my opponent, the right one for 8 CP and second for 4 CP. First of all, i find the whole CP for every location 1) right arm= 8 CP 2) left arm= 4 CP 3)torso, legs, neck= 6 CP now, because the sum of grappled parts (arms) is 12 and both arms have more than 12/4=3 CP, they strenghten themselves for 3 more CP 1)right arm= 11 CP: -5 ST/DX 2)left arm= 7 CP: -3 ST/DX 3)torso, neck, legs=6 CP: -3 ST/DX Final dodge malus= -6 Is it everything right?? Last thing i m been asking, Trained stenght used for quick contests, is the one calculated via table at page 47 in technical grappling right? so, if have 10 of strenght, with Amr ST 2 and wrestling at DX+4, and i'm grappling with both hands and legs, i have= (10 ST+ 2 arm ST) * 1.5 both arms and legs multiplier + 3 for wrestling (fast training)= 21. If i'm trying to arm lock, my quick contest roll in this case is 21 ( my training ST). Did i do any error?? thank you for answers
01-16-2018, 08:36 PM   #2
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Re: technical grappling, whole body CP and dodge malus

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Devil_Dante hi everyone!! Asking for your help about control points and the malus they deal to dodge. I m trying to figure out if i have understood the mechanics right, especially the ones concerning whole body control and how everything fits togheter. For what i have understood, only the CP of neck and torso deal a malus to the dodge (and, of course, to resist to knockdown, because all rolls are quick contest, based on ST or skills). So, referring to a case where you are grappling an opponent's leg, for 10 CP, the referred control points on torso and head/neck will be 5 and 5. But, if your opponent tries to dodge, he has a total of 10 referred CP and thus -5 to ST and DX= -5 to dodge.
Not quite correct. The -5 to ST and DX (assuming ST 10 foe) is right, but just like with the rest of GURPS, -4 to DX is -2 to parry and -1 to dodge, so the -5 to DX translates into only -1 to Dodge.

Quote:
 Assuming so, let try to make it harder. Now i'm going to grapple both arms of my opponent, the right one for 8 CP and second for 4 CP. First of all, i find the whole CP for every location 1) right arm= 8 CP 2) left arm= 4 CP 3)torso, legs, neck= 6 CP now, because the sum of grappled parts (arms) is 12 and both arms have more than 12/4=3 CP, they strenghten themselves for 3 more CP 1)right arm= 11 CP: -5 ST/DX 2)left arm= 7 CP: -3 ST/DX 3)torso, neck, legs=6 CP: -3 ST/DX Final dodge malus= -6
The CP look OK: 11 CP (-5 to ST/DX) on the right arm, 7 CP (-3 ST/DX) left arm, but the torso and neck are referred only, 6 CP for -3 to ST/DX, -1 to parry, no penalty to Dodge.

Quote:
 Last thing i m been asking, Trained stenght used for quick contests, is the one calculated via table at page 47 in technical grappling right? so, if have 10 of strenght, with Amr ST 2 and wrestling at DX+4, and i'm grappling with both hands and legs, i have= (10 ST+ 2 arm ST) * 1.5 both arms and legs multiplier + 3 for wrestling (fast training)= 21. If i'm trying to arm lock, my quick contest roll in this case is 21 ( my training ST).
This would be a situation where you're trying an arm lock from prone, since you can't stand up while grappling with both arms and legs.

But the table calls out Arm ST as one of the situations where you need to calculate Trained ST using your basic lift.

Two arms with ST 12, two legs with ST 10, x 1.2 for legs is also ST 12.

So BL for ST 12 is 28.8 lbs, doubled for arms and legs is 57.6. The ST that gives you BL 57.6 is 16.97 . .. call it ST 17.

Then add +3 for the Wrestling Training Bonus for a total ST 20. That's a control point roll of 2d-1.
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01-17-2018, 03:38 AM   #3
Devil_Dante

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Italy, Rome
Re: technical grappling, whole body CP and dodge malus

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DouglasCole Not quite correct. The -5 to ST and DX (assuming ST 10 foe) is right, but just like with the rest of GURPS, -4 to DX is -2 to parry and -1 to dodge, so the -5 to DX translates into only -1 to Dodge.
Sure.. every 4 DX is +1 to dodge, my bad

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DouglasCole The CP look OK: 11 CP (-5 to ST/DX) on the right arm, 7 CP (-3 ST/DX) left arm, but the torso and neck are referred only, 6 CP for -3 to ST/DX, -1 to parry, no penalty to Dodge.
ok, i am not sure about this one: torso and head have both 6 referred CP. The sum is 12 CP, or -6 to ST and DX. So -1 to dodge.
Again, if i understand correctly, is the sum of the CP from head and torso that is used to count the malus

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DouglasCole This would be a situation where you're trying an arm lock from prone, since you can't stand up while grappling with both arms and legs. But the table calls out Arm ST as one of the situations where you need to calculate Trained ST using your basic lift. Two arms with ST 12, two legs with ST 10, x 1.2 for legs is also ST 12.
Of course.. legs have ST 10 and arms ST 12.. again my bad, haven't thought precisely

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DouglasCole So BL for ST 12 is 28.8 lbs, doubled for arms and legs is 57.6. The ST that gives you BL 57.6 is 16.97 . .. call it ST 17. Then add +3 for the Wrestling Training Bonus for a total ST 20. That's a control point roll of 2d-1.
i guess is the same if i do the math this way: 12 (arm ST) * 1 ( both arms)+ 10 (leg ST)*0.5 ( leg bonus ST) +3 (wrestling)=20
without using lbs is just faster

01-17-2018, 09:01 AM   #4
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Re: technical grappling, whole body CP and dodge malus

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Devil_Dante ok, i am not sure about this one: torso and head have both 6 referred CP. The sum is 12 CP, or -6 to ST and DX. So -1 to dodge. Again, if i understand correctly, is the sum of the CP from head and torso that is used to count the malus
Ugh. How I ever thought this mess was a good idea is beyond me.

I think you have it right; the referred torso and head combine.

I'm going to make an alternate house rule suggestion on my blog, because ugh.
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Live on Kickstarter: The Citadel at Noršvorn. An epic Norse-inspired setting for the Dungeon Fantasy RPG.

Last edited by DouglasCole; 01-17-2018 at 09:36 AM.

 01-17-2018, 09:52 AM #5 Devil_Dante     Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Italy, Rome Re: technical grappling, whole body CP and dodge malus i'm reading tons of different gurps balistic articles on TG Amazing work, especially the TG "balck widow" fight scene in iron man 2 but i have still some problems.. the first is purely technical: techniques like joint lock, referre to quick contest of trained ST. I dont get it. It s the final strenght calculated AFTER have considered limbs used? for example: strenght 10, grabbing with both arms and legs is multiplied by 1,5, so strenght 15. Or is only the strenght + the bonus from advantages ( arm strenght, lif ecc..) and training in skill like wrestling, judo ecc?? in this case, only 10. Second: how do you handle all these numbers ( bonus and malus) during a game session? do you remember every single one?? I mean, gurps is briliant but sometime i feel overwhelmed edit: i'm trying to emulate a fight scene like this one: minute 3:50 more or less https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDW5epw8c3g it s Metal gear 3 in case you don t know it i just wish to understand better the rules to enjoy the fight more Last edited by Devil_Dante; 01-17-2018 at 10:12 AM.
01-17-2018, 10:10 AM   #6
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Re: technical grappling, whole body CP and dodge malus

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Devil_Dante but i have still some problems.. the first is purely technical: techniques like joint lock, referre to quick contest of trained ST. I dont get it. It s the final strenght calculated AFTER have considered limbs used? for example: strenght 10, grabbing with both arms and legs is multiplied by 1,5, so strenght 15. Or is only the strenght + the bonus from advantages ( arm strenght, lif ecc..) and training in skill like wrestling, judo ecc?? in this case, only 10.
As the book is written, you should figure the effective Trained ST for all the limbs used to grapple and counter-grapple. The effective Trained ST of both combatants is reduced by control points inflicted on them.

In your example of both arms and legs, the full Trained ST is 20. If you're applying 8 CP to some other dude's arm, and he's normally Trained ST 12, he's be at -4 to ST due to the grapple, for Trained ST 20 vs Trained ST 8.

There's a reason this is a fight-ending position

Quote:
 Second: how do you handle all these numbers ( bonus and malus) during a game session? do you remember every single one?? I mean, gurps is briliant but sometime i feel overwhelmed
This is, frankly, an area that could be improved. In my early writing days I focused on "getting it right." These days, my focus is "making it not stupid" with an emphasis on speed of play.
__________________
Gaming Ballistic, LLC: Home of Dragon Heresy, Hall of Judgment, and hand-made viking shields.

Live on Kickstarter: The Citadel at Noršvorn. An epic Norse-inspired setting for the Dungeon Fantasy RPG.

01-17-2018, 10:33 AM   #7
Devil_Dante

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Italy, Rome
Re: technical grappling, whole body CP and dodge malus

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DouglasCole As the book is written, you should figure the effective Trained ST for all the limbs used to grapple and counter-grapple. The effective Trained ST of both combatants is reduced by control points inflicted on them. In your example of both arms and legs, the full Trained ST is 20. If you're applying 8 CP to some other dude's arm, and he's normally Trained ST 12, he's be at -4 to ST due to the grapple, for Trained ST 20 vs Trained ST 8. There's a reason this is a fight-ending position
scuse me sir, ST 20, i don t get it.. 10 base ST, multiplied by 1,5. Am i missing something??
But, thanks, i had a a feeling to have misunderstood something. But wasn t sure about Okkam's answer :D

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DouglasCole This is, frankly, an area that could be improved. In my early writing days I focused on "getting it right." These days, my focus is "making it not stupid" with an emphasis on speed of play.
Don t get me wrong, i LOVE GURPS.. i knew gurps a couple of years ago and i fell in love instantly.. i only had played D&D for 18 years and last 4 yars, world of darkness, vampire, mage ecc.. i tried different RPG but, generally, they all missed something.. GURPS has been created for me, i know it.
But my friends don t like too difficult stuff, so i'm trying to make things simplier, for them (cause i have explained them the rules) and for me ( cause i have to handle all stuff). For new players TG is a very difficult book, but i'm a completist and i like realistic rules. So, keep up the good work sir. Amazing.
I can't stop thank you and whole team

01-17-2018, 10:37 AM   #8
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Re: technical grappling, whole body CP and dodge malus

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Devil_Dante scuse me sir, ST 20, i don t get it.. 10 base ST, multiplied by 1,5. Am i missing something??
I assumed you were using your prior example - ST 10, Arm ST 2, Arms and Legs, Training bonus of +3 from wrestling.
__________________
Gaming Ballistic, LLC: Home of Dragon Heresy, Hall of Judgment, and hand-made viking shields.

Live on Kickstarter: The Citadel at Noršvorn. An epic Norse-inspired setting for the Dungeon Fantasy RPG.

01-17-2018, 10:50 AM   #9
Devil_Dante

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Italy, Rome
Re: technical grappling, whole body CP and dodge malus

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DouglasCole I assumed you were using your prior example - ST 10, Arm ST 2, Arms and Legs, Training bonus of +3 from wrestling.
ugh, that s right, the first one. Well, you have answered all my questions. Really thanks

by the way, are there other article about technical grappling, like the previous i have mentioned(https://gamingballistic.com/2013/10/...dow-in-iron/)?

this one is very well done

 01-17-2018, 11:00 AM #10 Phantasm     Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the road again... Re: technical grappling, whole body CP and dodge malus Minor nitpick: the word you're looking for is "penalty", not "malus". "Malus" is a word in English, but it's defined as "the return of performance-related compensation upon the discovery of deficient performance." Not sure where the "malus is the opposite of bonus" bit came from, as I've never seen it anywhere other than on these forums. __________________ "But mom, I don't wanna go back in the dungeon!" The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation. Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting

 Tags grappled defenses, referred control

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