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Old 01-09-2018, 06:44 PM   #11
sir_pudding
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Default Re: help with an attack turret ability

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
But it acts like a shot, not a weapon, doesn't it? Is there some way you could build a turret out of those?
Yes, definitely. I maybe will post an example, if I get the time and nobody beats me to it, probably on my poor quiescent blog rather than here.
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: help with an attack turret ability

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Originally Posted by Kfireblade View Post
Well, I definitely want them to be able to do everything you mentioned. In edition I want them to be able to move around to a degree.
Personally, I think you're probably better off building them as Allies. It will certainly be cheaper than buying all the abilities on the character, even with appropriate limitations. But, building them as Allies will definitely impose some limitations on them as well. I'll try to list these:
  • Cost to replace. If a turret is destroyed in combat, you've probably lost it, unless you pay character points for a new one.
  • Mental limitations. If the turret is an automaton that obeys your every order, it will have the limitations of that - if it's got Slave Mentality and Reprogrammable, for instance, it will obey your orders, even if they're suicidal, but will display no initiative and be very confused without clear, detailed orders. You may frequently spend turns in combat ordering the turrets about instead of doing something yourself.
  • Travel time/difficulty. If they're allies, you have to arrange some way to get to where you are. You may not want to take them into, for instance, a fancy dress ball, and if they're waiting in the cloak room, they can't be there immediately when the shooting starts. As sir_pudding notes, if these things are Summonable, then you still have to explain a mechanism for how they reach you, and that's potentially interruptable - if they move very fast from their base, their flight path can be blocked, if they teleport, their warp-jump can be disrupted, and so on.

All that said, I still think building these as Allies is the right way to go. But be aware of what you're buying!
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:02 PM   #13
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Default Re: help with an attack turret ability

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Cost to replace. If a turret is destroyed in combat, you've probably lost it, unless you pay character points for a new one.
Dungeon Fantasy has summonable allies that are easily replaced and cause only modest inconvenience if they die. I'm having trouble turning up the best sourcing for this, but it is a thing.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: help with an attack turret ability

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Dungeon Fantasy has summonable allies that are easily replaced and cause only modest inconvenience if they die.
If you're thinking of the druidic Allies in Dungeon Fantasy 5, they're Conjurable, not Summonable - they require a reaction roll each time you call one up, and if that fails, they won't help. It explicitly notes that Allies that this doesn't apply to, where you're calling up the same one each time, are much harder to replace. The rules for Divine Allies, which are referenced there, admittedly don't require re-purchasing the Ally with character points. However, they impose what I'd consider equally-strenuous requirements, of month-long penance periods, significant cash loss, or whatever else the GM deems appropriate.

For circumstances like this, where the Allies are basically constructions rather than people, I'd be okay with ruling that the PC could replace destroyed Allies without paying character points for them again, as long as the replacement process was equally significant as the above - spending 50% of campaign starting wealth on a new drone turret, for example, or waiting a month for your gadgeteer pal to build and test a new one.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:33 PM   #15
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Default Re: help with an attack turret ability

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
If you're thinking of the druidic Allies in Dungeon Fantasy 5, they're Conjurable, not Summonable - they require a reaction roll each time you call one up, and if that fails, they won't help. It explicitly notes that Allies that this doesn't apply to, where you're calling up the same one each time, are much harder to replace. The rules for Divine Allies, which are referenced there, admittedly don't require re-purchasing the Ally with character points. However, they impose what I'd consider equally-strenuous requirements, of month-long penance periods, significant cash loss, or whatever else the GM deems appropriate.

For circumstances like this, where the Allies are basically constructions rather than people, I'd be okay with ruling that the PC could replace destroyed Allies without paying character points for them again, as long as the replacement process was equally significant as the above - spending 50% of campaign starting wealth on a new drone turret, for example, or waiting a month for your gadgeteer pal to build and test a new one.
Right, but minion allies does need reaction rolls. So a conjurable, minion ally will be trivially replaced in a day if it dies, and always obey you.

Kromm also postulated an ally advantage for 'directly controlled by the player' that I think was +300% (it was a long time ago), which may be applicable here (so the ally is controlled by the player instead of by the GM and can perform actions that are not in its best interests if they are in the players planning best interests).

It won't be cheap compared to a 'normal' ally, but it still won't be overly expensive compared to a weird trick build of innate attack.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:33 PM   #16
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Default Re: help with an attack turret ability

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Right, but minion allies does need reaction rolls. So a conjurable, minion ally will be trivially replaced in a day if it dies, and always obey you.

Kromm also postulated an ally advantage for 'directly controlled by the player' that I think was +300% (it was a long time ago), which may be applicable here (so the ally is controlled by the player instead of by the GM and can perform actions that are not in its best interests if they are in the players planning best interests).

It won't be cheap compared to a 'normal' ally, but it still won't be overly expensive compared to a weird trick build of innate attack.
*Sigh* that should read 'minion allies do not need reaction rolls'
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:44 PM   #17
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Default Re: help with an attack turret ability

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
If you're thinking of the druidic Allies in Dungeon Fantasy 5, they're Conjurable, not Summonable - they require a reaction roll each time you call one up, and if that fails, they won't help.
The word conjure does appear in relation to them, but they're not actually labeled as 'Conjurable', and they do use the Summonable enhancement.
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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
It explicitly notes that Allies that this doesn't apply to, where you're calling up the same one each time, are much harder to replace. The rules for Divine Allies, which are referenced there, admittedly don't require re-purchasing the Ally with character points. However, they impose what I'd consider equally-strenuous requirements, of month-long penance periods, significant cash loss, or whatever else the GM deems appropriate.
I don't think I'd agree that writing off 19 or 29 points is not a considerably more serious loss than the penance requirements.
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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
For circumstances like this, where the Allies are basically constructions rather than people, I'd be okay with ruling that the PC could replace destroyed Allies without paying character points for them again, as long as the replacement process was equally significant as the above - spending 50% of campaign starting wealth on a new drone turret, for example, or waiting a month for your gadgeteer pal to build and test a new one.
The turrets could also be 'conjurable' in nature, unless I missed something from the OP.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:25 PM   #18
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Default Re: help with an attack turret ability

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
The turrets could also be 'conjurable' in nature, unless I missed something from the OP.
Reaction rolls probably aren't appropriate, and it also isn't likely that the intent is for a different turret each time.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:38 PM   #19
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Default Re: help with an attack turret ability

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Reaction rolls probably aren't appropriate, and it also isn't likely that the intent is for a different turret each time.
They're almost certainly minions, to the first.

To the second...maybe, but I don't see why not at the moment.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:38 PM   #20
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Default Re: help with an attack turret ability

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Right, but minion allies does need reaction rolls. So a conjurable, minion ally will be trivially replaced in a day if it dies, and always obey you.
Got a citation for that? Allies in general don't need reaction rolls - they're assumed to have, on average, a positive reaction to you by default. Minion, in any case, doesn't say they'll obey you without question, it just says they won't desert you if you ask them to do something suicidal or blatantly stupid. They can still say "No", they just won't leave.

In any case, I definitely wouldn't allow Minion to overcome the drawbacks of Conjurable Allies. It's a major balancing factor to Conjurable that you have to make that reaction roll every time. Putting Minion on it as well means that, once you get the positive reaction, they then won't abandon you. But it shouldn't overcome the initial need for a positive reaction.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
The word conjure does appear in relation to them, but they're not actually labeled as 'Conjurable', and they do use the Summonable enhancement.
Given that a) I don't think Conjurable was defined at that point as a named, separate enhancement from Summonable, just described as a variant in Powers, and b) it literally uses the rules outlined in Conjurable (you get a different creature each time, and you have to make a reaction roll each time), I feel quite confident that Conjurable was the intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth
I don't think I'd agree that writing off 19 or 29 points is not a considerably more serious loss than the penance requirements.
You can argue otherwise, of course. But I can pretty easily see times when a player might want to have the option to just spend some banked character points and get an Ally back immediately, rather than having to deal with the inconvenience of whatever replacement method the GM called for. Whether the lost Ally is a matter of lost character points, replaceable with a quick purchase of banked points, or will require a long, difficult process in-game, is just something that should be established when the character takes the trait.
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