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Old 12-23-2017, 12:54 AM   #11
ColBosch
 
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Default Re: Howitzers on the Ogre Mk VII

...of course, now that I think about it, I might have the glimmerings of a scenario based around a Mk VII, taking advantage of its now-uncertain stats.
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Old 12-24-2017, 09:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Howitzers on the Ogre Mk VII

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
GURPS Ogre: 4 MB, 12 SB, 24 AP, 4 missile racks, 32 internal missiles. Starting MP 2 (i.e., 30 mph off-road), no hints as to number of tread units.

Ogre Miniatures Update: 4 MB, 8 SB, 24 AP, 12 external missiles, 2 howitzers. Starting MP 2 (i.e., 4"), with 96 tread units. Ogre howitzers are evidently ATK 6, RNG 5, DEF 3. It's also got some weird special rules which I'm ignoring for now.

So there's a thing. The GURPS Ogre version is two Mk Vs glued to the back half of a Fencer. It's slow, but straightforward to use - to, honestly, the point of boredom. It's just a Mk VI+. The Ogre Minis version is odd, to say the least. I really don't know what to make of it. For instance, why don't the howitzers replace any of the regular batteries, why is their range truncated, and why double-up on external missiles but drop racks entirely?

I'm not sure I like either take. Adding howitzers to an Ogre would break up the rather linear progression of increasing weaponry, but Ogre Miniature's version just feels weird and wrong, even before we get into the special rules.

Thoughts?
96 Tread Units with Move 2 means it will be Move 2 until it looses 48 Tread Units. A Mark5 that lost that many would be at a Move 1 and 12 away from immobility. Meanwhile the Mark7 has 48 Tread Units left traveling at Move 1.

x2 Mark5s = 60/60 Tread Units = 120.
A Mark7 has 96.
Comparing x2 Mark 5s to the Mark7:
This means one immobile Mark5 at 0 Move and the second one is at Move 2 with 24 Tread Units remaining. 4 Tread Units away from Move 1.
or both Mark5s at Move 12. That's x2 successful External Missiles or X2 Howitzer attacks or one each to reduce it to a 0 Move.

A potential 12 External Missile Alpha Strike = Attack Range 5 Damage 6...12 times. Sure, x2 Mark5s can do the same, but you can say that about plenty of other units that have the same fire power as single units.

x2 Howitzers that can Move 2. (They should be normal Howitzers and delete those special rules please). = Attack Strength 6/6 or Combine Fire 12 = Disables or Xs.

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Not at all coincidentally, we've already pulled the VII stats out of the upcoming edition of Ogre Minis, leaving only a mention that a monstrosity like that was considered and designed but apparently not built. We now canonically deny everything we said before about those stats. Maybe it was fake news :) Maybe they put an Ogre brain in it in simulation and it said "Lose these big guns and give me more missiles or an escort."
That's wise because it allows preservation of the core concept while also allowing further development and play testing, even the version that has Howitzers.

I would say keep those two Howitzers and run it with an escort. We could have trials to see who can manufacture the best version like Porsche and Henschel when designing the Tiger Tank in WW2...heh

Thematically at the very least, the Mark7 is worthy of it's own supplement. It's a legend. The Mark7 actually compliments the OGRE lineage because it is the only chassis large enough to effectively mount two Howitzers and still be cost effective. Thus, none were ever used on anything other than the Mobile Howitzers. Even the Mark6 was suspected of reaching, if not passing the point of diminishing returns. However, it also "performed admirably" when it saw combat.

One thing is certain, no other unit in the OGREverse would be more of a Cruise Missile magnet. Which is why this monster would have a heavy escort screen of units around it.
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 12-24-2017 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 12-24-2017, 10:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Howitzers on the Ogre Mk VII

I think your analysis proves my conclusion: the Mk VII adds nothing to the actual game but tedium. It just crawls on and on, making a slow beeline towards its objective. The very nature of hexed-based play will begin to show its weaknesses, as you're going to run low on places to physically move units into range to shoot at it.

As for your idea for a Mk VII and supporting units vs. cruise missiles game, that displays the opposite problem: it's a scenario that relies almost entirely on luck. A couple good rolls by the defender, or poor rolls by the attacker, and the game is over. Without those lucky rolls, you return to tedium: move your force two hexes forward, roll to intercept cruise missiles, rinse, repeat.
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Old 12-25-2017, 10:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: Howitzers on the Ogre Mk VII

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I think your analysis proves my conclusion: the Mk VII adds nothing to the actual game but tedium. It just crawls on and on, making a slow beeline towards its objective. The very nature of hexed-based play will begin to show its weaknesses, as you're going to run low on places to physically move units into range to shoot at it.

As for your idea for a Mk VII and supporting units vs. cruise missiles game, that displays the opposite problem: it's a scenario that relies almost entirely on luck. A couple good rolls by the defender, or poor rolls by the attacker, and the game is over. Without those lucky rolls, you return to tedium: move your force two hexes forward, roll to intercept cruise missiles, rinse, repeat.
I do like the idea of it being a legend, in the truest sense of the word. Stories whispered by terrified infantry, each retelling exaggerating the size, toughness, and firepower. Stories told and retold by PEF infantry huddled around a campfire, trying to spook the new recruits. Maybe some start talking about being the sole survivor of a unit that was in the wrong place at the wrong time and a field test came meandering through.

Just reading other posts in the thread as you guys try to describe what it is in analogy form..."Two Mk.Vs strapped to half a Fencer", that sounds like a pretty tall tale already. Give it a few degrees of separation thanks to 'whisper down the lane' and I could easily see forming the groundwork for a straight-up 21st-century Beowulf.
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Old 12-26-2017, 09:35 AM   #15
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Default Re: Howitzers on the Ogre Mk VII

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I do like the idea of it being a legend, in the truest sense of the word. Stories whispered by terrified infantry, each retelling exaggerating the size, toughness, and firepower. Stories told and retold by PEF infantry huddled around a campfire, trying to spook the new recruits. Maybe some start talking about being the sole survivor of a unit that was in the wrong place at the wrong time and a field test came meandering through.

Just reading other posts in the thread as you guys try to describe what it is in analogy form..."Two Mk.Vs strapped to half a Fencer", that sounds like a pretty tall tale already. Give it a few degrees of separation thanks to 'whisper down the lane' and I could easily see forming the groundwork for a straight-up 21st-century Beowulf.
The Mark VII seems closer to going into the OLD GUY chronicles and farther away from Ogre and maybe at least getting into something beyond the CSA types of Bolos
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:53 AM   #16
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Default Re: Howitzers on the Ogre Mk VII

I had to look up what Old Guy was...that could be an interesting read.
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Old 01-01-2018, 07:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: Howitzers on the Ogre Mk VII

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I had to look up what Old Guy was...that could be an interesting read.
It's like Bolo on Steroids
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Old 01-02-2018, 09:25 PM   #18
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Howitzers on the Ogre Mk VII

Rumor has it that Paneurope is secretly working on a Mark7 program of their own with much more substantive and tangible results...

This makes more feasible sense than Combine producing and fielding a Mark7 because Paneurope was on the defensive while Combine was on the offensive. A Combine produced Mark7 would be problematic because of it's move of 2 used in an offensive role, even heavily escorted while a Paneuropean Mark7 being used defensively would not be and in fact even compliment their defensive posture with these slow moving OGREs.

Essentially a central command vehicle and mobile fortress bristling with Howitzers, these secret super OGREs were used in tandem with the Paneuropean Defense network of LOGREs (Laser OGREs), OGRE AI Laser Tower Batteries, and Fortifications. Like other OGRE AI operated weapon systems unique to the Paneuropean line of battle, the Integrated Howitzers were also operated by the OGRE making them superior to non-OGRE operated ones.

The Bollwerk class OGREs were the largest ever produced even by Combine standards. The most famous was called the Zitadelle...
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 01-06-2018 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:03 AM   #19
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Default Re: Howitzers on the Ogre Mk VII

The basics of the scenario I'm poking at would be a "wave attack" sort of thing. It's a simulation, kind of like Exercise K. The attacker gets something like 10 AU each turn that enter the board, and the defender has their choice of the following: GURPS Ogre-style Mk VII, Ogre Miniatures-style Mk VII, or two Mk Vs (the control group). The Ogres will die, eventually, it's just a matter of how many waves of attackers needed to bring them down.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:36 AM   #20
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Default Re: Howitzers on the Ogre Mk VII

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The basics of the scenario I'm poking at would be a "wave attack" sort of thing. It's a simulation, kind of like Exercise K. The attacker gets something like 10 AU each turn that enter the board, and the defender has their choice of the following: GURPS Ogre-style Mk VII, Ogre Miniatures-style Mk VII, or two Mk Vs (the control group). The Ogres will die, eventually, it's just a matter of how many waves of attackers needed to bring them down.
Maybe ...but if a couple of Vulcans could be used to resupply and repair then we have the makings of a reinforcement scenario. Especially if the resupply was done under the cover of say a Fencer unit. Great Factory States finale.
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