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Old 12-06-2017, 05:09 PM   #11
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: [Powers] Neutralize & Energy Reserves

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
1) Does the Cosmic Enhancement, in this case, still leave "Wild" powers unaffected?
I would say that's correct, at least not without a further +300% Cosmic enhancement. Consider what neutralizing "Wild" advantages would actually mean. When a bird flies, it's technically got the advantage Flight with the Winged limitation. Should a character with Neutralize be able to touch a bird and take away its wings? Should they be able to reduce a person with ST 20 down to an average ST 10? Neutralizing all advantages is a very big power. Too big, really - there's no way I'd allow a build, even with the +600% Cosmic I just mentioned, to neutralize all advantages. Even that build would have limits.

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Originally Posted by Otaku
2) Why don't Energy Reserves have a source?
Well, I guess the question is, how would a power source actually limit an Energy Reserve? ERs are pretty much only useful if you have other abilities that can be fuelled by them. So if something neutralized your psi abilities, for instance, you couldn't benefit from ER (Psi) in any case. Likewise, if you've got a Divine modifier on abilities, and break your pact, you already can't use the basic abilities, so the fact that you can't use your ER to power them doesn't really matter.

I suppose in certain cases, like the Spirit modifier, where using abilities requires a random roll each time, you could put the limitation on your Energy Reserve (Spirit), since you could possibly roll well enough to use an ability, but the spirits could decide to deny you the energy to fund it. But it would have to be that case, where the energy and the abilities can be separated mechanically.
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:52 PM   #12
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Default Re: [Powers] Neutralize & Energy Reserves

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I would say that's correct, at least not without a further +300% Cosmic enhancement. Consider what neutralizing "Wild" advantages would actually mean. When a bird flies, it's technically got the advantage Flight with the Winged limitation. Should a character with Neutralize be able to touch a bird and take away its wings? Should they be able to reduce a person with ST 20 down to an average ST 10? Neutralizing all advantages is a very big power. Too big, really - there's no way I'd allow a build, even with the +600% Cosmic I just mentioned, to neutralize all advantages. Even that build would have limits.
Thank you. I was mostly thinking of things like how some settings allow a wild version of "Danger Sense", not applying it to mundane targets. It really should have gone without saying, since "neutralizing all of a victim's powers of a given source..." is part of the RAW. So, I appreciate you setting me straight on that. ^^'

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Well, I guess the question is, how would a power source actually limit an Energy Reserve? ERs are pretty much only useful if you have other abilities that can be fuelled by them. So if something neutralized your psi abilities, for instance, you couldn't benefit from ER (Psi) in any case. Likewise, if you've got a Divine modifier on abilities, and break your pact, you already can't use the basic abilities, so the fact that you can't use your ER to power them doesn't really matter.

I suppose in certain cases, like the Spirit modifier, where using abilities requires a random roll each time, you could put the limitation on your Energy Reserve (Spirit), since you could possibly roll well enough to use an ability, but the spirits could decide to deny you the energy to fund it. But it would have to be that case, where the energy and the abilities can be separated mechanically.
More good points. Not sure if you saw the edited or the original version of my post (some of my posts take a long time to write...), but I realized I kept using "power modifier" instead of "source". At least, I think that causes what I am about to say to make a difference. >.>

It is possible that an Energy Reserve actually comes from something other than what it fuels. Can that get into heavy munchkin territory? Absolutely, but on rare occasions, it will make sense. I mean, if Supers can learn magic, you gotta figure eventually a Super will learn magic. ;) You've also got traits like Leech, spells like Steal Strength (at least, back in 3e), maybe a few more ways that someone with nothing else still working still help fuel others.

In Powers, Neutralize gets some Limitations where this might make sense as well, such as Derange; instead of just shutting down your opponent's powers, they gain the Uncontrollable Limitation. So... kind of like with your Spirit example, you'd have situations where a character tries to use a power that is normally fueled by the related Energy Reserve, but the Energy Reserve isn't cooperating. One Ability is another Limitation for Neutralize, and using it on "Energy Reserve" is starting to sound like a shrewd move... or at least it would be, if Energy Reserves could be affected, and were common enough.

Finally, Energy Reserves have to recharge once you've expended them. If your mage has an Energy Reserve that fuels its spellcasting, and the setting calls for all magic to depend upon mana, your Energy Reserve might involve wholly unmagical processes to generate, store, and access that Energy but... I would actually expect the Energy Reserve itself to require mana for at least one of those three steps.
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Last edited by Otaku; 12-06-2017 at 05:56 PM. Reason: Tweaked the wording in spots.
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:20 PM   #13
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Default Re: [Powers] Neutralize & Energy Reserves

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
It is possible that an Energy Reserve actually comes from something other than what it fuels. Can that get into heavy munchkin territory? Absolutely, but on rare occasions, it will make sense. I mean, if Supers can learn magic, you gotta figure eventually a Super will learn magic. ;)
If you're talking about a hypothetical Energy Reserve (Magic and Super), I think I'd require at least a +100% Cosmic modifier on the ER to allow that. A big part of the balance on Energy Reserve is the fact that they only apply to abilities from one source automatically.

If you're talking about an Energy Reserve (Magic) that somehow had the power modifier Super, -10%, well... I guess? In comic book universes, a lot can fly (<- geddit?), and I suppose I could envision someone who had the superpower of "being really good at magic". Maybe they were in a terrible accident involving a radioactive grimoire? I dunno.


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Originally Posted by Otaku
In Powers, Neutralize gets some Limitations where this might make sense as well, such as Derange; instead of just shutting down your opponent's powers, they gain the Uncontrollable Limitation. So... kind of like with your Spirit example, you'd have situations where a character tries to use a power that is normally fueled by the related Energy Reserve, but the Energy Reserve isn't cooperating.
I suppose that's true as well. Personally, it would get a bit too finicky for my taste - I'd rather have people just Neutralizing the abilities themselves, rather than the energy used to power them. But, in your games, it may work!

Anyway, though, even if you assume that Energy Reserves should be vulnerable to this sort of ability-manipulating and -cancelling powers, I'd still tend to argue that a power source modifier is rarely appropriate. In fact, I already suggested, upthread, that you can basically treat Energy Reserve as having the power modifier for the source it fuels already built in, and not break anything. Remember, Energy Reserve actually gets some notable benefits compared to FP, while costing the same per level: regenerating simultaneously to the FP pool, and regenerating without rest. Limiting them only to a single source might not be enough to make up for that, so adding a "built-in" power modifier might go a bit further.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:29 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Powers] Neutralize & Energy Reserves

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
If you're talking about a hypothetical Energy Reserve (Magic and Super), I think I'd require at least a +100% Cosmic modifier on the ER to allow that. A big part of the balance on Energy Reserve is the fact that they only apply to abilities from one source automatically.

If you're talking about an Energy Reserve (Magic) that somehow had the power modifier Super, -10%, well... I guess? In comic book universes, a lot can fly (<- geddit?), and I suppose I could envision someone who had the superpower of "being really good at magic". Maybe they were in a terrible accident involving a radioactive grimoire? I dunno.
I mean the latter and not the former. As a recovering Marvel comic's fanboy, I can tell you eventually, it stops being silly and starts making sense. ;) In a long-running "Kitchen sink" style setting like the core Marvel Multiverse, sooner or later, mixing happens. I mean, you really need hybrid modifiers to describe certain characters, as they'll be "Mutant Psi" or even "Mutant Magic", but if they have an Energy reserve, that just means it would have the same hybrid restriction on it. What I was alluding to is how, after time, power sources within the setting can be applied to each other.

I mean, at least in the mainstream Marvel setting. You'll have vast organizations or powerful individuals that specialize in granting powers. Sooner or later, one expects someone to replicate mutant powers in non-mutant, maybe through genetic engineering, maybe through organ transplants. You'll have ancient magical groups embracing modern (or even ultra) tech, and vice versa. Unless a particular source imbalances it, chi seems like it should be able to enhance it just like it can enhance an individual's other capabilities. XD

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I suppose that's true as well. Personally, it would get a bit too finicky for my taste - I'd rather have people just Neutralizing the abilities themselves, rather than the energy used to power them. But, in your games, it may work!
Brainstorming challenges for players I don't even have yet (and won't have anytime soon). Trying to find that balance between cheesing the players versus giving them a cakewalk. Completely countering all of someone's powers probably needs to be used sparingly, but just knocking out his or her Energy reserve? Just might have potential (or it might be a terrible idea XD).

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Anyway, though, even if you assume that Energy Reserves should be vulnerable to this sort of ability-manipulating and -cancelling powers, I'd still tend to argue that a power source modifier is rarely appropriate. In fact, I already suggested, upthread, that you can basically treat Energy Reserve as having the power modifier for the source it fuels already built in, and not break anything. Remember, Energy Reserve actually gets some notable benefits compared to FP, while costing the same per level: regenerating simultaneously to the FP pool, and regenerating without rest. Limiting them only to a single source might not be enough to make up for that, so adding a "built-in" power modifier might go a bit further.
My apologies; I totally missed you mentioned that already. >_<
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:50 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Powers] Neutralize & Energy Reserves

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Not automatically, no. Neutralize can affect abilities from a particular source that "the GM deems susceptible to neutralization" (Powers, p. 97). If a power source is susceptible to neutralization, it should include the -5% for anti-powers being available in it. If a power modifier doesn't include that, it's not susceptible to neutralization, by definition. And Blessed and True Faith don't, by default, include that limitation.
True, though in one of the Pyramid articles (Pyramid 3/78:Blessed Be) it was discussed that power modifiers can be implied or embedded in the overarching advantage. Plus, in my own interpretation, advantages like Blessed and True Faith (ones that require adherence to some "greater power's" rules) would logically fall under the Divine power modifier, ones like Magery fall under Magic, etc.

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I assume the original poster is still talking about default Neutralize, which is source-specific, but not ability-specific.
You are correct, I was assuming the source specific version.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Well, I guess the question is, how would a power source actually limit an Energy Reserve? ERs are pretty much only useful if you have other abilities that can be fuelled by them. So if something neutralized your psi abilities, for instance, you couldn't benefit from ER (Psi) in any case. Likewise, if you've got a Divine modifier on abilities, and break your pact, you already can't use the basic abilities, so the fact that you can't use your ER to power them doesn't really matter.

I suppose in certain cases, like the Spirit modifier, where using abilities requires a random roll each time, you could put the limitation on your Energy Reserve (Spirit), since you could possibly roll well enough to use an ability, but the spirits could decide to deny you the energy to fund it. But it would have to be that case, where the energy and the abilities can be separated mechanically.
The idea I was going for was reducing the energy available to utilize their other powers. It is a situation where the powers of the setting cannot be fueled by a character's FP, so by cutting off access to their ER you effectively temporarily negate their powers.

Both suggestions of how it works seem valid; 1) denying access to the Energy Reserves for the duration and depleting it; or 2) only denying access to the Energy Reserves for the duration.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I suppose that's true as well. Personally, it would get a bit too finicky for my taste - I'd rather have people just Neutralizing the abilities themselves, rather than the energy used to power them. But, in your games, it may work!
I agree that simply removing the powers themselves achieves similar results. However, for the setting that I'm modeling it makes more thematic sense to deplete the energy available rather than temporarily suppressing the ability, at least as far as I've been able to interpret it.

Note: Not really sure how to reference Pyramid articles, so hopefully that works.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:03 AM   #16
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Default Re: [Powers] Neutralize & Energy Reserves

I could thematically see, and could be convinced to allow, Neutralize(one ability:energy reserve, cosmic:all sources).
It would restrict access, not drain the reserve.

But there are also the 2 following alternative:
To drain the reserve, I would go with a modified fatigue attack (+0%, affect energy reserve instead of fatigue), or leech.
or
Affliction(negated advantage:Energy reserve) that would reduce the levels of an energy reserve.

Last edited by Celjabba; 12-07-2017 at 01:06 AM.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:36 AM   #17
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Default Re: [Powers] Neutralize & Energy Reserves

I had forgotten about Affliction(Negated Advantage). Now, using the Affliction, do the reduced levels have to regenerate and then be restored? Meaning, if I reduced someone's Energy Reserve from 5 to 4, it takes a number of minutes equal to my margin of success before the Energy Reserve pool returns to 5. At that point, would the target have to wait another 10 minutes for the pool to regenerate to 5 (as per the ER recovery rules) or would it start out at 5?
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:05 AM   #18
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Default Re: [Powers] Neutralize & Energy Reserves

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I had forgotten about Affliction(Negated Advantage). Now, using the Affliction, do the reduced levels have to regenerate and then be restored? Meaning, if I reduced someone's Energy Reserve from 5 to 4, it takes a number of minutes equal to my margin of success before the Energy Reserve pool returns to 5. At that point, would the target have to wait another 10 minutes for the pool to regenerate to 5 (as per the ER recovery rules) or would it start out at 5?
Ultimately, it is a GM decision but unless RAW say otherwise, I would rule it come back depleted. But it probably need playtesting, may be unbalanced.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:27 AM   #19
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Default Re: [Powers] Neutralize & Energy Reserves

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
Ultimately, it is a GM decision but unless RAW say otherwise, I would rule it come back depleted.
I'm not aware of any RAW on the subject. But I'd rule the other way - I'd say it comes back full (if it was full in the first place, anyway). I'd have to do some math, but I suspect that an Affliction (Negated Advantage: Energy Reserve) with an extremely short duration would end up cheaper than Fatigue Attack, and so it shouldn't be as effective or more at depleting energy reserves. Also, consider the opposite situation, someone being given an Energy Reserve - I'd generally say that would arrive full, since that sort of build is generally designed to be a "Lend Energy" sort of thing, and having the recipient wait for the Reserve to fill up before they could use the energy seems unreasonable.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:36 AM   #20
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Default Re: [Powers] Neutralize & Energy Reserves

The other thing to consider is that if it wasn't full to begin with. If it is reduced via the Affliction while it is partially full and returns full, then effectively it becomes the Healing (FP Only) advantage.

I think it would make sense if the Energy Reserves returns to its original state (however full or depleted it was) and if it would restore more ER than it currently has capacity for due to the negated levels the excess would be lost.
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