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Old 12-05-2017, 03:45 PM   #1
Sorenant
 
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Default Innate Attack: Fixed 2 damage cost?

Pyramid #60 p.31 has the following advantage as Sword of Pure Magic:
Quote:
Cutting Attack 2 points (Magical, -10%; Melee Attack, Reach 1, -25%; ST-Based, +100%; Thrusting Blade, +15%) [9]
Cutting Damage costs [7] per die. Apply the modifiers and you get 12.6 or [13] per die.
Partial Dices costa +-.3 dice per +-1 damage and .25 dice for 1 damage.
If I take the 1 damage and buy two levels, I get 13*.25*2=6.5 or [7]
If consider 0d +2 its 0.6 dices which gives 13*.6=7.8 or [8]

This similar question mentions that in Magic 2pts damage gets .75 multiplier but it also doesn't work here: 13*.75=9.75 or [10]

How did the author of the Pyramid come to [9]? Am I missing some ruling done in another book or Kromm posts?
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:08 PM   #2
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Default Re: Innate Attack: Fixed 2 damage cost?

Yay massive exploit builds (low base damage str-based innate attack is super-broken). My best guess is consecutive rounding:
7 (base cost) x .6 = 4.2, round to [5].
5 points with a +80% net enhancement is [9].
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:18 PM   #3
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Default Re: Innate Attack: Fixed 2 damage cost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Yay massive exploit builds (low base damage str-based innate attack is super-broken). My best guess is consecutive rounding:
7 (base cost) x .6 = 4.2, round to [5].
5 points with a +80% net enhancement is [9].
That seems to match with the other advantages, thanks!
Now, why is this advantage super-broken? For a single extra point one could buy a Balanced Fine Thrusting Broadsword as Signature Gear, dealing more damage and giving +1 to ESL. The advantage of Pure Magic weapons seems to be that it doesn't have weight and don't break, which although definitely a plus, I wouldn't call broken.
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: Innate Attack: Fixed 2 damage cost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
That seems to match with the other advantages, thanks!
Now, why is this advantage super-broken?
It's not competing with carried weapons, it's competing with natural weapons, and (Swing/Cut, immune to Hurting Yourself, increased reach, can parry weapons without penalty) is a lot better than any form of Claws.
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:05 PM   #5
PK
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Default Re: Innate Attack: Fixed 2 damage cost?

The official ruling is that for anything above a fixed 1 point, you should use the "Adds to Dice" rule in reverse. For example, a fixed 2 points of damage is treated as 1d-2, and a fixed 7 points of damage is treated as 2d.
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:59 PM   #6
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Default Re: Innate Attack: Fixed 2 damage cost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK View Post
For example, a fixed 2 points of damage is treated as 1d-2.
Wouldn't that result in 1-(0.3*2)=.4 > 7*.4=2.8=[3] > [3]+80%=5.4=[6]?


Quote:
Originally Posted by PK View Post
fixed 7 points of damage is treated as 2d.
So fixed 5 would be 2d-2, which gives:
7*1.4=9.8=[10] > [10]+70%=[17] Which is also off for the Great Axe of Pure Magic which is listed as [19]

I took a look at the Innate Attack Calculator source and found the following:
Code:
 if (dmgDice == 0 && dmgBonus == 1) {
    dmgBonusPercent = .25;
  } else {
    dmgBonusPercent = .3 * dmgBonus;
  }
Which seems to work nicely:
Great Axe: 5*.3=1.5 > [7]*2.1=10.5=[11] > [11]+70%=18.7=[19]
Halberd: 4*.3=1.2 > [5]*1.2=[6] > [6]+70%=10.2=[11] ...

Now, is there a value for 0 damage Innate Attack? Say I want to make a Shortsword of Pure Magic (totally not trying to translate Blade of Grass to Sorcery), how would i go get Cutting Attack 0 (Magical, -10%; Melee Attack, Reach 1, -25%; ST-Based, +100%) point value? I'm inclined to say calculate as 1 point of damage and give it something like "Non Damaging, +0%".

Last edited by Sorenant; 12-07-2017 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: Innate Attack: Fixed 2 damage cost?

IMO, Sorenant, the best answer is "Ditch Innate Attack and use Natural Weapons," which also addresses Anthony's objection to how potentially abusive Innate Attack (ST-based) can be. It would require rebuilding those Weapons of Pure Magic, of course.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Innate Attack: Fixed 2 damage cost?

I have some issues with Natural Weapons as well, but they're generally less broken. My best fix would be something like:

ST-Based (-80%). Your damage is the attack's rated damage, or your ST damage, whichever is less (this produces results consistent with the rules for modifying ST-base damage). That would change the cost of this power from [9] to [4] (for base damage) plus an additional 1.4 per die for max damage (for max ST 30, 5d+2 would cost [8]).
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:09 PM   #9
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Default Re: Innate Attack: Fixed 2 damage cost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
IMO, Sorenant, the best answer is "Ditch Innate Attack and use Natural Weapons," which also addresses Anthony's objection to how potentially abusive Innate Attack (ST-based) can be. It would require rebuilding those Weapons of Pure Magic, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I have some issues with Natural Weapons as well, but they're generally less broken. My best fix would be something like:

ST-Based (-80%). Your damage is the attack's rated damage, or your ST damage, whichever is less (this produces results consistent with the rules for modifying ST-base damage). That would change the cost of this power from [9] to [4] (for base damage) plus an additional 1.4 per die for max damage (for max ST 30, 5d+2 would cost [8]).
Can I have a quick explanation on what I get from and why I should get that article? Between the year end expenses and exchange rates, US$8 is not something I'm willing to spent for an article without good reason...
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:48 PM   #10
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Default Re: Innate Attack: Fixed 2 damage cost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
Can I have a quick explanation on what I get from and why I should get that article?
It's a rework of how natural weapons function. I wouldn't consider it necessary.
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