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Old 12-03-2017, 06:30 PM   #1
Stripe
 
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Default Deflect on a Shield

At first, it seemed to me that DFRPG added some much-needed clarification to Deflect in that it now only counts toward the location of the armor it protects. See Magic Items pp. 4-5.

However, I then noticed Deflect can still be placed on shields. Perhaps it only defends against attacks to the shield, which would be fine with me, but DFRPG doesn't use DR/HP for shields (which I actually miss) that I noticed, so I don't think that's the case.

Defending Shield costs $10,000 to add +1 to block and +2 for $20,000.

Does Deflect on a shield add +1 to all defenses to any location for $2,000 and +2 for $10,000?

I understand that Defending Shield can probably stack with Deflect to allow a really high block score, but is that the only reason for doubling a much higher cost with a lower usefulness? Or am I missing something or reading something wrong?

Thanks!
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:58 AM   #2
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

Defending Shield doesn't increase ready time or close combat penalty.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:24 PM   #3
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

Deflect probably shouldn't exist, it's an artifact of PD in previous editions. Note that it appears from the wording in Exploits that the Deflect enchantment also does not stack with the Shield spell (Spells 65).
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:35 PM   #4
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post

Note that it appears from the wording in Exploits that the Deflect enchantment also does not stack with the Shield spell (Spells 65).
That is correct. To quote Exploits, p. 47:
Magic can provide a DB, too. Only the best magical DB applies – such bonuses don't "stack."
While Deflect might be underpriced, Defending Shield does stack nicely. I'd compare the situation to paying 15 points for Combat Reflexes, for +1 to all active defenses (plus a bunch of other nice stuff), vs. paying 25 points for Enhanced Block, Enhanced Dodge, and Enhanced Parry: You get the second thing only after getting the first, cheaper one, and you stack them.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:44 AM   #5
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

I'm an idiot. I'm misreading something here somehow because I just can't wrap my stupid brain around what seems to be a total contradiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Deflect probably shouldn't exist, it's an artifact of PD in previous editions. Note that it appears from the wording in Exploits that the Deflect enchantment also does not stack with the Shield spell (Spells 65).
That is correct. To quote Exploits, p. 47:
Magic can provide a DB, too. Only the best magical DB applies – such bonuses don't "stack."
Okay. Got it. No stacking. Only the best. Defending Shield +1, Deflect +2 only gives +2, not +3.

But, that, to me, means Defending Shield is now completely overshadowed by Deflect since it costs a whole lot more and does a whole lot less. I mean, +2 to DB for all defenses to all locations for $10K, or +1 to DB only while blocking for $20K, which are you going to choose?

But, then I read the other half of the quote . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Defending Shield does stack nicely.
What? Defending shield does stack with Deflect? But, the quoted RAW literally said, "such bonuses don't 'stack.'"

That's how I know I'm reading something wildly wrong here, or I'm not catching something.

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I'd compare the situation to paying 15 points for Combat Reflexes, for +1 to all active defenses (plus a bunch of other nice stuff), vs. paying 25 points for Enhanced Block, Enhanced Dodge, and Enhanced Parry: You get the second thing only after getting the first, cheaper one, and you stack them.
Right. And that's what I thought. Enchant your shield with Deflect +2 for $10,000 then Defending Shield +1 for $10,000 for +2 DB for a parry or dodge, +3 DB to a block.

I know we've been through this on the GURPS forum, but can I get a break down?
  1. Joe has a small shield (DB 1) enchanted with Deflect +2 and Defending +1. Sam attacks him. Joe chooses block as his active defense. What is Joe's DB?
  2. Sam has a breastplate with Deflect +1 and a small shield (DB 1) with Defending +1. Ron attacks his torso. Sam chooses to block. What is Sam's DB?
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:54 AM   #6
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
What? Defending shield does stack with Deflect? But, the quoted RAW literally said, "such bonuses don't 'stack.'"

That's how I know I'm reading something wildly wrong here, or I'm not catching something.
Defending Shield grants a bonus to Block, Deflect gives a bonus to DB. While these have the same effect when blocking, they are not the same thing and thus can stack.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
1. Joe has a small shield (DB 1) enchanted with Deflect +2 and Defending +1. Sam attacks him. Joe chooses block as his active defense. What is Joe's DB?
His DB is 3 (shield DB 1 +2 for Deflect). His Block is 3 + Shield skill / 2 + 1 (shield DB) + 1 (Defending Shield) + 2 (Deflect), and if he has Combat Reflexes +1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
2. Sam has a breastplate with Deflect +1 and a small shield (DB 1) with Defending +1. Ron attacks his torso. Sam chooses to block. What is Sam's DB?
His DB is Shield DB 1 + Deflect 1 = 2.
His Block is 3 + shield skill / 2 + 1 (shield DB) + 1 (breastplate Deflect) ( + 1 if Combat Reflexes)

Edit: fixed up and clarified.
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Last edited by JMason; 12-06-2017 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:58 AM   #7
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

Only the highest applicable Deflect counts. Defending Shield or Defending weapon apply to all defenses using that weapon. Generally with a million copper and free choice, you want Deflect on armor and defending on the other stuff, since it costs the same and you're less likely to be without it.

But if you have deflect +2 on a DB 2 shield it's effectively DB 4. If your skill is 14 without combat Reflexes this makes your block with that shield 14. If you add defending Shield +3 it's a block of 17. But the DB on a Parry or dodge is still 4

Last edited by Colarmel; 12-06-2017 at 02:30 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:14 AM   #8
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMason View Post

Defending Shield grants a bonus to Block, Deflect gives a bonus to DB. While these have the same effect when blocking, they are not the same thing and thus can stack.
Correct. Defense Bonus has nothing to do with Block. It's a bonus to all active defenses, including any weird new ones the GM opts to make up. Block bonuses are effectively increases to Shield skill for defense only. If you really hate Defending Shield as written, have each level include +1 to all rolls with your shield: +1 when you make a shield bash, feint, or rush; +1 to Block; and +1 to anything else that seems to be all about your shield (Captain America . . .).
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colarmel View Post
Only the highest applicable Deflect counts. Defending Shield or Defending weapon apply to all defenses using that weapon. Generally with a million coppet and free choice, you want Deflect on armor and defending on the other stuff, since it costs the same and you're less likely to be without it.
Deflect on armor doesn't inflict increased Ready time or Close Combat penalties either.

It also makes you have to figure out active defenses based on hit location, and requires you to roll hit location before defense. I really wish that piecemeal Deflect wasn't something that they kept in this game. Something like jewelry that gives you a DB with the same restrictions as the Shield spell (rings of protection) would have been my preference.
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Deflect on armor doesn't inflict increased Ready time or Close Combat penalties either.

It also makes you have to figure out active defenses based on hit location, and requires you to roll hit location before defense. I really wish that piecemeal Deflect wasn't something that they kept in this game. Something like jewelry that gives you a DB with the same restrictions as the Shield spell (rings of protection) would have been my preference.
Yeah. In my game I wouldn't allow deflect piecemeal or on shields. Just to avoid book-keeping. It goes on jewelry or full suits, if the only armor your character wears is torso armor and you want deflect, fine, but you're paying full suit prices and it's covering your whole body with magical deflect-y goodness. If we can allow As You Like It, I can insist on that.

Last edited by Colarmel; 12-06-2017 at 02:30 PM. Reason: Clarity
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