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Old 11-17-2017, 01:42 AM   #1
Bicorn
 
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Default DF Magical Styles - about Energy Orbs

When making an Energy Orb (Dungeon Magic p. 19) does energy you get for "free" from high skill and such also contribute to the energy stored? E.g. if I have Fireball at skill 15, can I make a 3-point Orb while paying only 2 energy or is only the energy I actually pay stored?
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Old 11-19-2017, 07:30 AM   #2
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Default Re: DF Magical Styles - about Energy Orbs

Seems like no one knows the answer?
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Old 11-19-2017, 07:56 AM   #3
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Default Re: DF Magical Styles - about Energy Orbs

I'd say "no".
Judging by the guessed spirit of the rule, see the example on the same page: Fergus can invest up to 6 energy points per second, and no discount is mentioned, even though he's got skill 17.
Judging by RAW, the discount is applied to the cost of a spell, while the perk doesn't mention paid cost, but rather the invested energy, so the rules don't interact with each other.
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:14 AM   #4
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Default Re: DF Magical Styles - about Energy Orbs

Hmm, by that reading, by RAW the cost reduction doesn't seem to apply to regular missiles either - page 12 of Magic also uses the phrasing "invest energy" instead of "pay the cost".
I agree that Orbs probably aren't intended to get free energy - it'd be a bit too good for just a perk otherwise. But are regular missiles supposed to get cost reductions or not?
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:16 AM   #5
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Default Re: DF Magical Styles - about Energy Orbs

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Originally Posted by Bicorn View Post
Seems like no one knows the answer?
I don't have access to the material you asked about. If the rules mirror GURPS MAGIC, then the energy cost to cast spells is reduced for high skill. However, some spells in GURPS MAGIC are exempt from this provision (see LEND ENERGY pg 89 ). So, without my buying the document in question, I can't give you a definitive answer.
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:37 AM   #6
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Default Re: DF Magical Styles - about Energy Orbs

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Originally Posted by Bicorn View Post
Hmm, by that reading, by RAW the cost reduction doesn't seem to apply to regular missiles either - page 12 of Magic also uses the phrasing "invest energy" instead of "pay the cost".
I agree that Orbs probably aren't intended to get free energy - it'd be a bit too good for just a perk otherwise. But are regular missiles supposed to get cost reductions or not?
High skill cost reduction for missile spells works as it does with other spells in GURPS MAGIC. However, high skills with missile spells does not reduce the time to cast missile spells.

Generally speaking, high skills do not lower energy costs to cast for blocking spells and those spells specifically exempt from that provision in the spell description itself. In addition, ceremonial spell castings do not benefit from high skill per the rules in GURPS MAGIC..However, the rules may be different for Dungeon Fantasy.

Last edited by hal; 11-19-2017 at 08:39 AM. Reason: Dang autocorrect from Kindle!
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:16 AM   #7
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Default Re: DF Magical Styles - about Energy Orbs

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Originally Posted by Bicorn View Post
Hmm, by that reading, by RAW the cost reduction doesn't seem to apply to regular missiles either - page 12 of Magic also uses the phrasing "invest energy" instead of "pay the cost".
I agree that Orbs probably aren't intended to get free energy - it'd be a bit too good for just a perk otherwise. But are regular missiles supposed to get cost reductions or not?
RAW the high skill reduction applies to missiles, but only to the TOTAL cost not the per turn pumping
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Old 11-19-2017, 04:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: DF Magical Styles - about Energy Orbs

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
RAW the high skill reduction applies to missiles, but only to the TOTAL cost not the per turn pumping
I always took the RAW to be when you rolled the Dice and paid the FP, that's when you get the reduction. Everything after that was excluded.
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: DF Magical Styles - about Energy Orbs

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
RAW the high skill reduction applies to missiles, but only to the TOTAL cost not the per turn pumping
Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I always took the RAW to be when you rolled the Dice and paid the FP, that's when you get the reduction. Everything after that was excluded.
Sounds like the same thing to me, really.
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Old 11-19-2017, 09:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: DF Magical Styles - about Energy Orbs

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
RAW the high skill reduction applies to missiles, but only to the TOTAL cost not the per turn pumping
Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I always took the RAW to be when you rolled the Dice and paid the FP, that's when you get the reduction. Everything after that was excluded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog View Post
Sounds like the same thing to me, really.
They are the same thing just one is elaborating on the detail of "when is fatigue cost for missiles spells applied"

The hypothetical argument that FP are reduce an a turn by turn, hence a missile spell 3 second you endurance your total FP as you pump it, does raise the question of when should the skill reduce be applied, opening the possible reasonable support for the skill reduction to apply to each second of pumping. I didn't address and evileeyore version gives a definitive answer by saying the while the casting time is variable the FP is spent only at the time of rolling hence the only support if reduction only being applied once to the total. So I admit my statement relied an assumption of that evileeyore spells out even if they add an unnecessary implication that contradicted my stament. Because together they give a more complete answer 8)

TL;DR:
Because the FP isn't actually spent until the final second that you roll for the spell hence closing off further opportunity to further pump the missile, the FP reduction from high skill is only applied once to the total FP cost of the missle spell, and not applied to each second up building the missile.

The Difference, Skill 15, Margery 1 caster can a 1d missile spell for zero FP spending 1 second pumping, but can not cast a 3d missile for 0 FP pumping for 3 seconds, but would instead cost 2 FP
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Last edited by roguebfl; 11-19-2017 at 09:17 PM.
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