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Old 11-07-2017, 03:27 PM   #1
Jefepato
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Default Summoning allies with Ritual Path Magic

In Thaumatology: RPM, we've got an example of a Lesser Create Spirit effect (Hidden Housekeeper, page 44), and it's stated (page 12) that you'd need a Greater Create Spirit to get something that isn't "weak and very limited." Makes sense.

So how do you do that? I don't see any price guidelines for this -- the only idea I've got is to treat this like adding the Ally advantage.

Let's say a 400-point witch wants to summon an earth elemental. 200 points sounds good enough, so that's Ally (earth elemental, built on 50%, all the time; Minion, +50%) [12]. Do you need to add Summonable as well, or is that unnecessary (since you're merely summoning this thing once by casting the spell, rather than giving yourself the ability to summon it in general)?

Does this work? Is there a better way to do this?

Summon Earth Elemental
Spell Effects: Greater Control Spirit + Greater Create Spirit
Inherent Modifiers: None
Greater Effects: 2 (x5)

Typical Casting: Greater Control Spirit (5) + Greater Create Spirit (6) + Altered Trait, Ally (50%, all the time, Minion +50%) (12) + Duration, 1 hour (+3), 120 energy (24x5)

...For that matter, is Greater Control Spirit necessary? Or would Lesser have been good enough? (I'm not sure if the Control Spirit in Hidden Housekeeper is Lesser because the spirit is weak, or Lesser because "control this spirit I just created" is a lesser effect in general.)
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Old 11-07-2017, 05:53 PM   #2
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Summoning allies with Ritual Path Magic

Jefepato? You found out last September how this works:

Ghostdancer, Ghostdancer, Ghostdancer!
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Old 11-07-2017, 06:03 PM   #3
N.H.Alicia
 
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Default Re: Summoning allies with Ritual Path Magic

I'm fairly certain that summoning is covered by the Path of Crossroads, unless you're using a variant.
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Old 11-07-2017, 06:46 PM   #4
Jefepato
 
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Default Re: Summoning allies with Ritual Path Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Jefepato? You found out last September how this works:

Ghostdancer, Ghostdancer, Ghostdancer!
Oh, right. RPM! RPM! RPM!

Quote:
Originally Posted by N.H.Alicia View Post
I'm fairly certain that summoning is covered by the Path of Crossroads, unless you're using a variant.
Opening a gate for an existing entity to come to you is Crossroads, sure. It probably wouldn't require any mucking around with added advantages either. The entity is out there and you just need to open it a path, regardless of its point value.

"Conjuring" is probably a more apt term than "summoning" for what I'm suggesting, but in my defense page 12 actually says "Use Lesser Create Spirit to summon..." etc.
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Old 11-07-2017, 08:05 PM   #5
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Summoning allies with Ritual Path Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Jefepato? You found out last September how this works:

Ghostdancer, Ghostdancer, Ghostdancer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefepato View Post
Oh, right. RPM! RPM! RPM!
Come on, guys - I'm hard at work writing more stuff and you keep summoning me to the forum demiplane. (I've actually been taking a break from here and other places because I've got a lot going on in my personal life at the moment, but this one's low hanging fruit so I decided to answer.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefepato View Post
In Thaumatology: RPM, we've got an example of a Lesser Create Spirit effect (Hidden Housekeeper, page 44), and it's stated (page 12) that you'd need a Greater Create Spirit to get something that isn't "weak and very limited." Makes sense.

So how do you do that? I don't see any price guidelines for this -- the only idea I've got is to treat this like adding the Ally advantage.

Let's say a 400-point witch wants to summon an earth elemental. 200 points sounds good enough, so that's Ally (earth elemental, built on 50%, all the time; Minion, +50%) [12]. Do you need to add Summonable as well, or is that unnecessary (since you're merely summoning this thing once by casting the spell, rather than giving yourself the ability to summon it in general)?

Does this work? Is there a better way to do this?

Summon Earth Elemental
Spell Effects: Greater Control Spirit + Greater Create Spirit
Inherent Modifiers: None
Greater Effects: 2 (x5)

Typical Casting: Greater Control Spirit (5) + Greater Create Spirit (6) + Altered Trait, Ally (50%, all the time, Minion +50%) (12) + Duration, 1 hour (+3), 120 energy (24x5)

...For that matter, is Greater Control Spirit necessary? Or would Lesser have been good enough? (I'm not sure if the Control Spirit in Hidden Housekeeper is Lesser because the spirit is weak, or Lesser because "control this spirit I just created" is a lesser effect in general.)
I never liked how you bought an ally as an altered trait like that even the the costs were more or less correct. It just never sat well with me. It's why I created the Summoned modifier on my blog and used it in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by N.H.Alicia View Post
I'm fairly certain that summoning is covered by the Path of Crossroads, unless you're using a variant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefepato View Post
Opening a gate for an existing entity to come to you is Crossroads, sure. It probably wouldn't require any mucking around with added advantages either. The entity is out there and you just need to open it a path, regardless of its point value.

"Conjuring" is probably a more apt term than "summoning" for what I'm suggesting, but in my defense page 12 actually says "Use Lesser Create Spirit to summon..." etc.
While effectively a feature - it's an important one. Creating a minion to do your bidding doesn't need Path of Crossroads, otherwise you do.
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Old 11-07-2017, 09:16 PM   #6
Jefepato
 
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Default Re: Summoning allies with Ritual Path Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Come on, guys - I'm hard at work writing more stuff and you keep summoning me to the forum demiplane. (I've actually been taking a break from here and other places because I've got a lot going on in my personal life at the moment, but this one's low hanging fruit so I decided to answer.)
Thanks. I really appreciate the help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
I never liked how you bought an ally as an altered trait like that even the the costs were more or less correct. It just never sat well with me. It's why I created the Summoned modifier on my blog and used it in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic.
Fair enough.

But, you don't require a Control effect to make conjured minions actually obey the caster? Your Summon Skeleton and Summon Skeleton Horde don't have it, whereas Bag of Bones and Hidden Housekeeper in Thaumatology: RPM both do have one.

(...Also, why is Reaper Bolt Create Undead instead of Destroy Body?)
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Old 11-07-2017, 09:36 PM   #7
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Summoning allies with Ritual Path Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefepato View Post
Thanks. I really appreciate the help.
No problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefepato View Post
Fair enough.

But, you don't require a Control effect to make conjured minions actually obey the caster? Your Summon Skeleton and Summon Skeleton Horde don't have it, whereas Bag of Bones and Hidden Housekeeper in Thaumatology: RPM both do have one.
It depends on the campaign setting. The reason it doesn't exists in that post is because I was building off the idea of a classical necromancer who controls the dead by dint of his own power.

By T:RPM you need one. By DF19 you don't. MY current campaign's magic system doesn't need one.

You could require one if it acts like a minion; otherwise just use the rules for Summonable or Conjurable beings (i.e., make a reaction roll when you first conjure something).

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(...Also, why is Reaper Bolt Create Undead instead of Destroy Body?)
Because you're "creating" death and not destroying it.
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:09 AM   #8
munin
 
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Default Re: Summoning allies with Ritual Path Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
I never liked how you bought an ally as an altered trait like that even the the costs were more or less correct. It just never sat well with me. It's why I created the Summoned modifier on my blog
What don't you like about it? If it's going to use the exact same costs as Altered Trait, Allies then why not just use the existing mechanic which already has a history of modifiers/decisions/etc.? (for example, adding Minion, Unwilling, etc.)
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Old 11-08-2017, 12:15 PM   #9
Jefepato
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Default Re: Summoning allies with Ritual Path Magic

Anyway, I guess that gives us (this assumes the spell is being cast as a charm):

Summon Earth Elemental
Spell Effects: Greater Control Spirit + Greater Create Spirit
Inherent Modifiers: None
Greater Effects: 2 (x5)

Typical Casting: Greater Control Spirit (5) + Greater Create Spirit (6) + Summoned, 50% of total (8) + Lesser Control Magic (5) + Duration, 1 hour (+3), 135 energy (27x5)
(I messed up the math in my original write-up but this should be right)

Personally I wouldn't go to the effort of setting up a spell like this and then leave things up to a reaction roll, but that's just me. It'd be a disaster if you conjured up a powerful creature and it, for some reason, didn't want to serve as your meatshield (dirtshield, whatever).

Anyway, if I'm reading the Defining Rituals sidebar (MH1 page 39) correctly, a Summon Elemental spell should count as the same ritual (for purposes of a grimoire and/or Ritual Mastery) even if the percentage-strength of the elemental summoned (i.e. the level of the Ally or Summoned trait) varies between castings, right?

Also, for those with relevant GMing experience -- as I understand it, normally an Ally's character sheet is generated by the GM. How much input would you generally allow a player to have on the stats of a temporary minion summoned via this kind of spell?
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Old 11-08-2017, 02:04 PM   #10
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Summoning allies with Ritual Path Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefepato View Post
Personally I wouldn't go to the effort of setting up a spell like this and then leave things up to a reaction roll, but that's just me. It'd be a disaster if you conjured up a powerful creature and it, for some reason, didn't want to serve as your meatshield (dirtshield, whatever).
Summoners who rely on Reactions usually get ridiculous modifiers, Spirit Empathy, and Diplomancy, IME. It isn't hard to get consistently good reactions from say fire elementals if you have a Talent, a Reputation, immolate something as part of the ritual, and are asking them to burn stuff anyway.
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