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Old 10-31-2017, 03:07 AM   #21
Maz
 
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Default Re: Using retreats without being attacked

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
I wouldn't say so. You aren't running full out when you're retreating because you can't make full moves and take a maneuver, right?
Correct (if I understand what you mean correctly that is):
See p. 377:

You also cannot retreat if you
moved faster than your Basic Move on
your last turn (that is, if you were
sprinting or using Enhanced Move).
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Old 10-31-2017, 09:14 AM   #22
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Default Re: Using retreats without being attacked

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
you're doing nothing to explain how that's desirable or rationalizable.
The problem seems not to come from the rules, but from an implicit assumption (by some) that the mechanics and play-pieces are a literal, fine-grained duplicate, voodoo-doll-style, of what's actually happening in the game world.

Suppose you're running down the hall, then retreat back a hex to avoid an attack, then finish running down the hall. The complaint of the thread would be "hey, you got extra Move with that extra hex! Why can't I move that fast without being attacked?". But the net result of that turn is actually that you moved one less hex forward, not an extra one back and forward again. Narratively, you might describe this not as instantly leaping backward out of range of an attack, but simply slowing down and becoming more cautious as you get in range. (Or perhaps you swerve a bit, costing a little forward progress. There are multiple possible explanations that fit the end result without corresponding millisecond-by-millisecond to the exact abstract motions of the game pieces on the game board, which are not the characters.) Similarly, even if you can manage to "retreat" forward to get that extra hex of total distance, that might be narrated simply as a bit of hustle, moving faster than normal just long enough to avoid the attack, or even a more clumsy desperate lunge forward out of reach.

Objecting that the retreat moves the counter back and forth and counting the hexes as "movement" but not "Move", but the character can't move that many hexes when not attacked, is the same class of error as objecting that the characters in this world move by instantaneously teleport from hex to hex in precise one-yard increments, but never anything smaller, while being unable to turn in any direction other than quantized 60-degree angles to face according to some cosmic alignment imposed on everyone in the universe. The map is not the territory; the medium is not the message.

And "realism" does not require literal simulation at arbitrarily small scales of resolution. Even if you're really into simulationism, there's a bottom to the simulation. (No one wants to make trillions of quantum physics rolls to see if the character's particles all move to the same hex, while making sure there's always conservation of energy in the electric and gravitational fields making all those particles move as a roughly human-shaped conglomerate.) Once you're talking about events of a fraction of a turn or hex, then the "logical" extrapolation of those beyond-resolution events as actual in-game events is no longer logical.
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Old 10-31-2017, 12:13 PM   #23
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Default Re: Using retreats without being attacked

Hm... so even if you are not sprinting but you move your full move and then do a retreat, you have moved more than your move and lose your retreat the next turn?

Seems it would also apply if you did a move+attack and extended beyond full move by doing a Flying Tackle or Jumping Attack.
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Old 10-31-2017, 12:44 PM   #24
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Default Re: Using retreats without being attacked

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Correct (if I understand what you mean correctly that is):
See p. 377:

You also cannot retreat if you
moved faster than your Basic Move on
your last turn (that is, if you were
sprinting or using Enhanced Move).
Yeah that pretty much settles the issue. You can't really use retreat to move faster than you could otherwise move.
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Old 10-31-2017, 02:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: Using retreats without being attacked

That only covers inability to add to sprint speed, which is already at +1 or more.

As corwyn pointed out, you can take you full move backward, and backpedaling doesn't allow sprinting anyway, and retreats give that extra hex.

All Out Defense Dedicated Dodge also allows half move, or half move +1 if you consider the retreat.

All Out Attack also allows half (but forward only) or full (if Slam) but cannot retreat since no defenses (also the case with Dedicated Attack if I recall)
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Old 10-31-2017, 02:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: Using retreats without being attacked

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
The problem seems not to come from the rules, but from an implicit assumption (by some) that the mechanics and play-pieces are a literal, fine-grained duplicate, voodoo-doll-style, of what's actually happening in the game world.

Suppose you're running down the hall, then retreat back a hex to avoid an attack, then finish running down the hall. The complaint of the thread would be "hey, you got extra Move with that extra hex! Why can't I move that fast without being attacked?". But the net result of that turn is actually that you moved one less hex forward, not an extra one back and forward again. Narratively, you might describe this not as instantly leaping backward out of range of an attack, but simply slowing down and becoming more cautious as you get in range. (Or perhaps you swerve a bit, costing a little forward progress. There are multiple possible explanations that fit the end result without corresponding millisecond-by-millisecond to the exact abstract motions of the game pieces on the game board, which are not the characters.) Similarly, even if you can manage to "retreat" forward to get that extra hex of total distance, that might be narrated simply as a bit of hustle, moving faster than normal just long enough to avoid the attack, or even a more clumsy desperate lunge forward out of reach.
Your talk about the Retreat is a bit of a stretch (the character did enter that last hex - if there were caltrops or tripwires or Wait triggers or anything else depending on that, they will have their chance) but it's irrelevant since nobody's actually making the complaint you purport to address.

And, once you've turned to the actual case at hand and explained that extra movement, you've walked squarely into the problem, but decided to keep refusing to look at it. You're establishing in the narrative that you can make that extra distance! Sure, you're pretending it's got drawbacks, even though it actually doesn't...but regardless you're leading straight into post 1 of the thread: why can't you get that extra distance without the 'help' of an incoming threat?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Objecting that the retreat moves the counter back and forth and counting the hexes as "movement" but not "Move", but the character can't move that many hexes when not attacked, is the same class of error as objecting that the characters in this world move by instantaneously teleport from hex to hex in precise one-yard increments, but never anything smaller, while being unable to turn in any direction other than quantized 60-degree angles to face according to some cosmic alignment imposed on everyone in the universe. The map is not the territory; the medium is not the message.
Uh, no, it's objecting to misrepresentation of a Kromm quote, nothing else.


As for your argument - GURPS combat doesn't get to be an abstracted tactical game not corresponding to actual in-fiction events. That makes no sense for all the ways it chooses to not be that. Yes, the fiction is probably less quantized and more temporally interleaved, but that doesn't add up to an opportunity to brush off fiction-incompatible behavior of the system.
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Old 10-31-2017, 02:53 PM   #27
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Default Re: Using retreats without being attacked

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
That only covers inability to add to sprint speed, which is already at +1 or more.

As corwyn pointed out, you can take you full move backward, and backpedaling doesn't allow sprinting anyway, and retreats give that extra hex.

All Out Defense Dedicated Dodge also allows half move, or half move +1 if you consider the retreat.

All Out Attack also allows half (but forward only) or full (if Slam) but cannot retreat since no defenses (also the case with Dedicated Attack if I recall)
If that bit of rules were in any way relevant (it's not) moving backward wouldn't set it off anyway - moving backwards costs double, so taking a Move backward and then Retreating is going to add up to less than Move worth of travel.
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Old 10-31-2017, 07:30 PM   #28
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Default Re: Using retreats without being attacked

Do you think "faster than your Basic Move" on 377 refers to moving more hexes than your BM or going beyond your standard Movement Points?

Knockback or being Judo Thrown are other issues which can move you a number of hexes byond standard enabled by MP and I'm not sure if they could contribute to taking you past the limit and stealing next turn Retreat.
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:25 AM   #29
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Default Re: Using retreats without being attacked

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
Hm... so even if you are not sprinting but you move your full move and then do a retreat, you have moved more than your move and lose your retreat the next turn?
No.

Likewise: If you took a Move maneuver, was attacked and used retreat. You could still Sprint your next turn. So just because you can't Retreat while sprinting doesn't mean you can't sprint after retreating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
Seems it would also apply if you did a move+attack and extended beyond full move by doing a Flying Tackle or Jumping Attack.
Move and Attack already disallow Retreats.
So does Committed attack as far as I remember.


----

You are right, that per the rules you can mover further with a Move + Retreat than a Move. I have yet to see it matter in a game though. and if I wanted to fix it, I would not give more move to people who do not retreat, but penalise people who do retreat (see my suggestion earlier in this thread).
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Old 11-01-2017, 10:52 AM   #30
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Default Re: Using retreats without being attacked

I think you can retreat during your first turn if sprinting, just not your second. Using the last-turn language, if you sprinted the previous turn, even if you slowed down and took a basic attack maneuver limiting you to 1 step (or all out defense double) you still couldn't retreat.

I forgot that bit about Move+Attack. I like the bit about penalizing retreaters but taking -1 next turn is still an advantage in the short term for them. What if to be able to retreat you had to "stock" a step or movement point?

This would be a rather big game changer to the basic attack maneuver, you could not advance without sacrificing your retreat, so "no retreat" maneuvers (AOA/DA/M+A) should have to pay that toll too, for balance.

This might also address the "everybody is so fast compared to IRL" concerns some have.
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