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Old 12-02-2017, 06:55 PM   #41
Dave Crowell
 
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Default Re: Question on 'Ramming'

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
The AI fail, however, is not talking about the basic Ogre scenarios. The fail is playing something like the Campaign scenario with the train and wasting time to shoot at tanks when if you fired at the rail or the train instead, you would win the game.

The AI has a real problem understanding the overall goals when it's something other than "kill the CP." It's one thing to take out all the defending units because you know your real goal is destroy something and exit; it's something completely different when the game *ends* as soon as the objective is hit.

So far, the AI has not shown to know the difference and in many cases blindly does things that not only have no bearing on the outcome, but flat out allow the other side to win because it was a complete waste of resources instead of finishing the job.
My comment on this was born from one of the Nightfall scenarios in which the AI
seemed to "forget" that it needed to prevent me from fulfilling my victory conditions. It allowed me to slip past it and attack objectives while it sent its units against my slower but harder hitting units in my rear. I would have expected a human to go after my units that were directly attacking the objective buldings instead.
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Old 12-02-2017, 07:53 PM   #42
GranitePenguin
 
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Default Re: Question on 'Ramming'

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Originally Posted by Dave Crowell View Post
My comment on this was born from one of the Nightfall scenarios in which the AI
seemed to "forget" that it needed to prevent me from fulfilling my victory conditions. It allowed me to slip past it and attack objectives while it sent its units against my slower but harder hitting units in my rear. I would have expected a human to go after my units that were directly attacking the objective buldings instead.
Yup. It's way too easy to bait the AI.
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Old 12-02-2017, 08:47 PM   #43
Dave Crowell
 
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Default Re: Question on 'Ramming'

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Would the text suggestion in Bold be a good addition for clarity?

When all its AP weapons are gone, or all it's movement has been used, an Ogre/SHVY can no longer reduce infantry in this way.
Yes, I think this is an improvement.
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Old 12-02-2017, 09:53 PM   #44
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Default Re: Question on 'Ramming'

I think that's redundant. If the Ogre can't move, of course it can't reduce INF by driving over it.
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:53 AM   #45
ianargent
 
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Default Re: Question on 'Ramming'

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I think that's redundant. If the Ogre can't move, of course it can't reduce INF by driving over it.
I forget, is an infantry unit that is overrun by an Ogre under Ogre Ramming Rules forced to move out of the hex if it survives? If not, there's a rare but not theoretically impossible corner case where an Ogre uses its one and only movement point to reduce an Infantry unit, fails to kill it with guns, and loses the last movement point in the enemy fire phase. There's now an Ogre in the same hex as the infantry, without the capability to reduce it in the movement phase.

(This is practically impossible, since nobody shoots at AP guns, so the Infantry will get mowed if it doesn't move.)
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:02 AM   #46
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Default Re: Question on 'Ramming'

By Ogre "ramming" rules, you can have an INF unit of some size in the same hex as the Ogre at the end of the turn. The game on Steam regularly does this. By G.E.V. "overrun" rules, one or the other should be gone.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:09 AM   #47
ianargent
 
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Default Re: Question on 'Ramming'

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Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
By Ogre "ramming" rules, you can have an INF unit of some size in the same hex as the Ogre at the end of the turn. The game on Steam regularly does this. By G.E.V. "overrun" rules, one or the other should be gone.
I forgot that Overrun was a rule keyword for the GEV close combat; very sloppy on my part. Please read that as ramming.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:34 AM   #48
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Default Re: Question on 'Ramming'

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I forget, is an infantry unit that is overrun by an Ogre under Ogre Ramming Rules forced to move out of the hex if it survives? If not, there's a rare but not theoretically impossible corner case where an Ogre uses its one and only movement point to reduce an Infantry unit, fails to kill it with guns, and loses the last movement point in the enemy fire phase. There's now an Ogre in the same hex as the infantry, without the capability to reduce it in the movement phase.

(This is practically impossible, since nobody shoots at AP guns, so the Infantry will get mowed if it doesn't move.)
No, INF doesn't have to move out. It's pretty common to have INF left over (and covered explicitly in the rules: 6.08). I don't really consider that a corner case; in your example, the Ogre doesn't have a movement phase, so it doesn't apply.

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By G.E.V. "overrun" rules, one or the other should be gone.
Not entirely true. When dealing with Ogres, it's possible to have opposing units left over. Look at 8.05.1 regarding disarmed Ogres; overruns can end early if the Ogre has no valid targets, resulting in both sides being in the same hex.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:39 AM   #49
Dave Crowell
 
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Default Re: Question on 'Ramming'

Under the Ogre rules Infantry is not required to move out of the same hex as an Ogre during the Ogre Player's turn, so it is possible for an Ogre turn to end with Infantry in the same hex. It is extremely unlikely that the infantry will survive, but there are ways it could happen. An Ogre choosing to fire substantial numbers of AP at surrounding infantry, and then blowing the die roll to attack the infantry in its own hex is one.

Under GEV rules it will go into overrun combat which will continue until one is dead or the Ogre is disarmed.

(Horrible thought, A MK VI with full treads, one AP, no other weapons overruns a 1/1 which destroys the AP on the first round of overrun combat. Think how long it could take to peel all those treads at 1:1 attack odds doing 1 tread unit per successful attack... This insanity is why we have Rule 8.05.1 Disarmed Ogres)

Last edited by Dave Crowell; 12-03-2017 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:49 AM   #50
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Default Re: Question on 'Ramming'

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(Horrible thought, A MK VI with full treads, one AP, no other weapons overruns a 1/1 which destroys the AP on the first round of overrun combat. Think how long it could take to peel all those treads at 1:1 attack odds doing 1 tread unit per successful attack... This insanity is why we have Rule 8.05.1 Disarmed Ogres)
If we didn't have 8.05.1, any sane player would simply say "the Ogre can't return fire, so just call it good" and fast-track to the Ogre being dead.

The real reason 8.05.1 exists is probably more along the line of the "4 minute turn" concept. It's unrealistic to think an Ogre that can't return fire is going to stick around and will disengage. The "2 more fire rounds" just represents the amount of time it takes for the Ogre to run away. It's also horribly un-fun for an Ogre auto-kill in that situation to exist; 8.05.1 gives an out so the game stays interesting.
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