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Old 10-04-2017, 06:02 PM   #31
Phantasm
 
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Default Re: Trying to make Black Widow

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That would still require the FF to be active ~40 years before any of the other Marvel mainstays like Spidey and core Avengers. There's also the little detail of guys like Iron Man and Punisher having 'Nam in their origin stories that require them to be in their 60s. At least.

Better to just ignore the fussy details and not constantly retcon to satisfy the condensed timeline of the real world if they don't want to do a full retcon like DC does at least every 20 years if not more often. It all starts very contrived.
While Iron Man was originally in 'Nam, even before the movie they were moving to have him getting injured over in Afghanistan. It wouldn't surprise me if they go the Afghanistan route with Punisher in the comics as well; I seem to recall that Marvel-Netflix!Punisher is an Afghanistan vet. The two wars are quite similar in how they're handled, with lots of bug hunts rather than straight-up fights, so the difference in terrain is the only part needed to alter.

(Say it with me: "Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave! With a box of scraps!")
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Old 10-04-2017, 06:24 PM   #32
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Default Re: Trying to make Black Widow

But there is a massive difference in how Vietnam vets were treated by civilians at large as Afghanistan. Still not that well but a big one in terms of scale of crappiness.
But PTSD is PTSD regardless of the war, decade, or century.
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Old 10-04-2017, 06:48 PM   #33
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But there is a massive difference in how Vietnam vets were treated by civilians at large as Afghanistan. Still not that well but a big one in terms of scale of crappiness.
But PTSD is PTSD regardless of the war, decade, or century.
However, Tony Stark had his Vietnamese adventure as a civilian consultant, and didn't have the experience of frontline combat or guerrilla warfare. And he was back from Nam and flying around in an iron suit early enough so that the anti-war protests hadn't really taken off. I think he was there when Kennedy was still in the White House, and buddy buddy with the South Vietnamese Catholic despots, and anticommunism was a widespread American attitude even among liberals.
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:07 PM   #34
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However, Tony Stark had his Vietnamese adventure as a civilian consultant, and didn't have the experience of frontline combat or guerrilla warfare. And he was back from Nam and flying around in an iron suit early enough so that the anti-war protests hadn't really taken off. I think he was there when Kennedy was still in the White House, and buddy buddy with the South Vietnamese Catholic despots, and anticommunism was a widespread American attitude even among liberals.
Indeed. IIRC, the anti-war sentiment didn't take off until late in LBJ's term or early in Nixon's.

And IIRC, Stark became Iron Man in '62, when Kennedy was still active, though I don't think Marvel actually referenced the sitting President in the early stuff until LBJ took office.

Fantastic Four and Hank Pym came in '61 (though Pym didn't take the Ant-Man identity until '62); Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, and Sgt. Fury started in '62 (though the latter was set in WWII); and I'm pretty sure Daredevil, the X-Men, and Doctor Strange started in '63. The Avengers didn't form until late '63, IIRC. In Iron Man, Ant-Man, and Hulk's titles, communists - either Chinese or Russian - were frequent bad guys. Getting back on topic, Black Widow started as a Soviet KGB operative working against Stark, and maneuvered Hawkeye into conflict with shell-head through her feminine wiles (among other skills in her arsenal).
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The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting

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Old 10-04-2017, 07:16 PM   #35
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Default Re: Trying to make Black Widow

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Movie!Widow is not a recipient of any serum.
Although she is apparently a graduate of Leviathan.
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:16 PM   #36
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Fantastic Four and Hank Pym came in '61 (though Pym didn't take the Ant-Man identity until '62); Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, and Sgt. Fury started in '62 (though the latter was set in WWII); and I'm pretty sure Daredevil, the X-Men, and Doctor Strange started in '63. The Avengers didn't form until late '63, IIRC. In Iron Man, Ant-Man, and Hulk's titles, communists - either Chinese or Russian - were frequent bad guys. Getting back on topic, Black Widow started as a Soviet KGB operative working against Stark, and maneuvered Hawkeye into conflict with shell-head through her feminine wiles (among other skills in her arsenal).
Yes, and there was no suggestion that she had enhancements, either to longevity or to raw physical attributes. Of course there have been a lot of different continuities since then. But I'm inclined to take the MCU as a separate continuity, in which things from any of the comic book continuities are not necessarily true—and the MCU has shown us that Soviet agents were trained under a cruelly harsh regime and were surgically sterilized, but not that they were given super-soldier treatments. There was a separate group of super-soldiers, starting with the Winter Soldier—and Natasha was terrified of him. Nor was there any hint of her being among the World War II trainees on "Agent Carter."

I don't think the MCU continuity supports her being older than she looks.
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:21 PM   #37
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Nor was there any hint of her being among the World War II trainees on "Agent Carter."
There isn't? Her flashbacks look almost exactly like what we see of Leviathan in Agent Carter. I'd be really surprised if that was coincidence.

She isn't that old, but she is the product of an institution that is.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:07 PM   #38
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There isn't? Her flashbacks look almost exactly like what we see of Leviathan in Agent Carter. I'd be really surprised if that was coincidence.

She isn't that old, but she is the product of an institution that is.
Yes, exactly. She could perfectly well have been through a training program that went back to Stalin's days, without having been alive in that era. Nothing I said was intended to rule that out.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:08 PM   #39
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Yes, exactly. She could perfectly well have been through a training program that went back to Stalin's days, without having been alive in that era. Nothing I said was intended to rule that out.
Yeah I read "wasn't any hint" as "there was no hint of a connection" which wasn't what you meant.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:17 PM   #40
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Default Re: Trying to make Black Widow

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Yes, and there was no suggestion that she had enhancements, either to longevity or to raw physical attributes. Of course there have been a lot of different continuities since then. But I'm inclined to take the MCU as a separate continuity, in which things from any of the comic book continuities are not necessarily true—and the MCU has shown us that Soviet agents were trained under a cruelly harsh regime and were surgically sterilized, but not that they were given super-soldier treatments. There was a separate group of super-soldiers, starting with the Winter Soldier—and Natasha was terrified of him. Nor was there any hint of her being among the World War II trainees on "Agent Carter."

I don't think the MCU continuity supports her being older than she looks.
No, in fact her birth date (or at least the year) is given by computer!Zola in Winter Soldier (some time in the late '80s or early '90s IIRC). Of course, I'm making a distinction between comics continuity (Earth-616) and the MCU (Earth-199999), and mainly discussing 616!Black Widow.

Again, the super-soldier program that comics!Nat is a recipient of was a relatively recent retcon in order to keep her WWII appearances (remembered by both Steve Rogers during the Pacific campaigns prior to his final fateful mission in Europe - itself a retcon from Avengers v1 #4 - and Wolverine, who at the time was apparently Canadian special forces, though Logan's own memory of the era is questionable) viable in the sliding time scale instead of merely topical. Mind, the tales with Wolverine and an infant Natasha Romanoff were written almost two decades ('80s and '90s) before they wrote Wolverine: Origins, so I'm not sure how much survived the Quesada era.

As I recall, Black Widow was pushing 30 in-universe in the mid '80s to early '90s (when she was running around in a gray bodysuit with a spider insignia on her left breast, and close-cropped hair - and occasionally an Avengers-logo leather jacket... yeah, those were a thing in the early '90s) - the super-soldier program retcon occurred in the late '90s or '00s, IIRC. In-universe, I'd probably peg her at 35 without the serum; with it, she's the most active 75 year old character out there. :)
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The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting
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