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Old 09-26-2017, 02:16 AM   #31
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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Originally Posted by chandley View Post
That article is one of three armor design rule articles that unifies armor design from TL 0 to TL 12. It does not start with the same kinds of assumptions that Low-Tech does. I like the 3 systems because it avoids the Low-tech to High-tech Steel DR weirdness (try figuring out a good armor choice for AtE using Low-tech, High-Tech, and Ultra-Tech....). I use it for my DF campaign, but I don't let players build armor, I built sets that are available, and they choose from what the blacksmith they are at has available or can make to order.

That said, the Segmented Plate option doesn't have a home really. If you have Iron or Steel, scale or mail options are better choices from TL 1-3. [B}If you have Bronze, Plate is the better option[/B]. It is meant to represent historical options for plate made from smaller plates, and about the only niche would be resisting crushing damage with cheaper Good Iron in the TL 1-3 range rather than very expensive Good Bronze. I skipped it, and I think OP, you should too, or redo the seg plate cost factor to represent its role in the market.

David is on the boards, you could try a PM to him, see what his intentions were.

Just quickly on the bit in bold, I'd probably adjust the construction table ‡ note on pg19 of the article on plate to be TL3 not TL4.

But I would also use the rules for sliding rivets from LT, and take in account the notes on pg 108 LT regarding TL3 plate in general*. The thing is TL3 at 600 AD - 1450 AD covers a lot of history! I'd take an individual view on different plate designs on different locations. LT Armour loadouts certainly has some examples at TL3 e.g the Chevalier Corselet which at DR5 and 32lbs is heavy. But as per the point regarding broad TL's that is late TL3.

As a general point given the broadness of early TLs as historical ranges I tend not to get too precise with them as hard and fast categories and cut offs. Even more so when mapping them to non historical settings. And as ever TL's don't crossover in all areas of technology, everywhere at exactly the same time anyway!



*for example I might increase the CW figure for Iron/steel TL3 plate

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-26-2017 at 04:38 AM.
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:57 PM   #32
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

I'll add a couple of points on different armours taht I dn't think are all covered in existing rules:

Chain is tiring to wear because all, or almost all, of the weight is on your shoulders, not distributed. This, IIRC, is covered in RAW. However, it doesn't require the metalworking resources (equipment and people) that plate of any kind does.

Scale, at least the type where only the top of the metal scales are attached, are really noisy, in the same volume range as full (but not tailored) plate. Ie., no stealth for you. It also weights on your shoulders the same way chain does. I'm not sure if this is covered anywhere.

Segmented plate is, at least partially, self-supporting and the weight is more distributed around the body. This, as far as I remember, is the major reason the Romans used it instead of chain.


To best of memory; happy to be corrected. But this is partly from armour-wearers, who far prefer the solid armour despite the creation difficulty and cost. :D
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:19 PM   #33
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chandley View Post
That article is one of three armor design rule articles that unifies armor design from TL 0 to TL 12. It does not start with the same kinds of assumptions that Low-Tech does. I like the 3 systems because it avoids the Low-tech to High-tech Steel DR weirdness (try figuring out a good armor choice for AtE using Low-tech, High-Tech, and Ultra-Tech....). I use it for my DF campaign, but I don't let players build armor, I built sets that are available, and they choose from what the blacksmith they are at has available or can make to order.
I actually like these three articles best of all the armor we've seen in GURPS, and I say that as the guy who wrote the armor section in High-Tech. David's dealt with trauma plates reasonably, and (especially!) the size of the wearer, which is a huge issue with the other systems. On top of all that, he's got the armor accessories at the higher-TLs, and the low-tech article discusses using some of the Low-Tech armor options. It's a very good collection for do-it-yourself gamers. It's not a pick-and-go setup, like in HT or UT, but its not a lot more complex than what's in LT. For all those reasons, I use it with the options from Low-Tech in lower TL games, and were I running something for High-Tech era where I wanted more armor options, I'd definitely use it. It's very well done.
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:53 PM   #34
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kax View Post
I'll add a couple of points on different armours taht I dn't think are all covered in existing rules:

Chain is tiring to wear because all, or almost all, of the weight is on your shoulders, not distributed. This, IIRC, is covered in RAW. However, it doesn't require the metalworking resources (equipment and people) that plate of any kind does.
...
I think it's almost the opposite. A tight belt relieves much of the shoulder strain for a full mail hauberk. Ancient people had a lot not-obvious-to-us tricks.

And that getting uniform quality steel for drawing wire isn't as forgiving as low grade steel for plate. I wonder if making cheap mail unavailable compared to cheap segmented plate may help the price and desirability some for outfitting armies like said Romans.
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:45 AM   #35
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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Sure but what is it for? Why would I want to use it?
I've used it, in combination with the High Tech and Ultra Tech equivalent, for an AtE campaign. The campaign premise involved a magical invasion getting nuked, and I needed rules for things like adamant inserts in kevlar armor and mutated spider-goat silk. I've also used it to build Low Tech style charts of modern reenactment armor for a Banestorm victim campaign centered on the SCA. I'd basically use it for anything too weird for Low Tech alone, or for schizo tech.

The biggest problem I ran into was that the Basic Set armors don't match up with Low Tech or the articles. Leg armor in particular tends to be lighter in the basic set than in the supplements. Mixing the two was a bad idea on my part.

On the original topic, I'd agree that looking just at the mechanics in that one article, Segmented Plate is generally worse than any other option. But so what? Bone armor is worse than Horn armor (being semi-ablative and otherwise identical) but I'm still going to make my tribal shaman's ceremonial armor be bone. Lead armor is completely crap, but that won't stop the barbarian chief from thinking (wrongly) that his lead helmet will protect him from sorcery. The Roman legion uses cheap/mass produced (40% cost) Segmented Plate, because they didn't have the tech to produce mail as cheaply or because they faced a lot of crushing weapons.

These rules are meant to allow players to make the most efficient possible armors; they're meant to provide reasonable stats for whatever armors the GM needs for the setting. If the GM needs titanian lorica segmenta, GURPS can deliver.
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:53 AM   #36
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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Originally Posted by Gnaskar View Post
...

On the original topic, I'd agree that looking just at the mechanics in that one article, Segmented Plate is generally worse than any other option. But so what? Bone armor is worse than Horn armor (being semi-ablative and otherwise identical) but I'm still going to make my tribal shaman's ceremonial armor be bone. Lead armor is completely crap, but that won't stop the barbarian chief from thinking (wrongly) that his lead helmet will protect him from sorcery. The Roman legion uses cheap/mass produced (40% cost) Segmented Plate, because they didn't have the tech to produce mail as cheaply or because they faced a lot of crushing weapons.

These rules are meant to allow players to make the most efficient possible armors; they're meant to provide reasonable stats for whatever armors the GM needs for the setting. If the GM needs titanian lorica segmenta, GURPS can deliver.
.....yep +1
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Old 09-27-2017, 05:00 AM   #37
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I think it's almost the opposite. A tight belt relieves much of the shoulder strain for a full mail hauberk.....
Yep, mail is actually pretty comfortable. I think in part due to its flexibility.

I may not have worn the most authentic mail in terms of link quality, but I have worn mail that was of historical weight (and heavier)

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Old 09-27-2017, 05:32 AM   #38
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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Originally Posted by Kax View Post
Chain is tiring to wear because all, or almost all, of the weight is on your shoulders, not distributed.
A lot of mail armour was custom-fitted to the wearer. It wasn't a shapeless tube like commercially available products today. Properly fitted mail has the weight more evenly distributed and isn't overly heavy on the shoulders. Tailoring it properly can also drop the weight by 5-10%.

Quote:
This, IIRC, is covered in RAW. However, it doesn't require the metalworking resources (equipment and people) that plate of any kind does.
Mail requires iron of a higher quality than plate. Iron has to be very highly refined otherwise it can't be pulled through a drawplate to create the wire and the links can delaminate when cut from the mandrel or pierced with a drift.
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Old 09-27-2017, 08:54 AM   #39
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

Bear in mind that (1) our view of the effectiveness of historical armor types is in hindsight, and (2) game stats for armor are based on this long-after-the-fact view. Even in times and places where both the materials and expertise to create armor varieties A and B were in abundance, the fact that we know now that A is better than B – and put that information in our games – is no guarantee that hundreds of thousands of warriors over centuries of warfare didn't believe that B was a good idea. Maybe B had attractive features that have nothing to do with what GURPS would sum up as DR, DR/$, or DR/lb.:
  • physical convenience at a level too small to rate in the game (a "-0.1 to DX" giving -1.2% to odds of success still means something when 10,000 soldiers experience it)
  • coolness in battle or on the march
  • warmth (or better compatibility with warm garments) in cold climates
  • stealthiness (or just not annoying the living hell out of people or animals with its racket)
  • less tendency to catch on and destroy clothing
  • less tendency to catch on and pinch flesh (causing sub-HP level injuries that get infected)
  • ease of maintenance in the field
  • ease of keeping clean (making for a shinier and more impressive show for the bigwigs and/or civilians)
  • pure intimidation factor when facing "barbarians" ("Holy hell, Karl, these guys are made of metal!")
. . . you name it.

There's this belief among gamers that somehow, after the first person or first few people or first entire army was lost because of crummy armor B, everybody would stop using B and start using A. But that assumes A was right there to compare to B; that the losses were clearly attributable to B rather than to bad tactics, unsuitable weapons, horrible weather, low morale, or just bad luck; and that word of all this made its way across the pre-electronic, pre-motorized world to every warrior, general, lord, and king with a stake in the matter.

In reality, of course, that didn't happen. Ask anybody who has served in a real war (me, I've spoken with veterans of WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, and a few smaller actions): Soldiers carry garbage into battle all the time. They are ordered to do so, and the same lousy gear sometimes hangs around for the next war and the one after that, getting people killed but being imposed on troops just the same because somebody far from the dying felt it was a good idea based on some tests or because the factory was located in their district or riding, or even because it was tacticool. This is in recent times, with scientific testing, OR, statistical analysis, and high-tech means of disseminating information.

So . . .

Think of armor that loses the DR/$ or DR/lb. contest as being needed for historical settings. Players can use their "meta" knowledge to choose A over B – just as they can see every counter on a battle map and make decisions in combat based on that, use their knowledge that "this is a game" to optimize stats, and exploit their awareness of the genre to know what threats they can safely discount. This is the "hidden edge" of adventurers in adventure games. Look at it as a positive thing: It helps explain why the heroes prevail without resorting to more ham-fisted methods such as dice-roll fudging, or to controversial game mechanics such as "fate points" and Luck.

This extends beyond historical games. In fantasy games, the savage orcs who attack in hordes with a "life is cheap" attitude can clank around in inefficient armor B because they just don't care or because they think it looks badass, while the civilized heroes can optimize their armor and be better protected while carrying less weight and spending less money. No problem.

(And arguably, a game needs this aspect, because the mini-game of finding the optimal gear, spotting loopholes, and avoiding pitfalls is the Hurting Wrong Fun of a huge number of players. An RPG that denies them the mini-game denies the publisher sales . . .)
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Old 09-27-2017, 11:03 AM   #40
chandley
 
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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Originally Posted by safisher View Post
I actually like these three articles best of all the armor we've seen in GURPS, and I say that as the guy who wrote the armor section in High-Tech. David's dealt with trauma plates reasonably, and (especially!) the size of the wearer, which is a huge issue with the other systems. On top of all that, he's got the armor accessories at the higher-TLs, and the low-tech article discusses using some of the Low-Tech armor options. It's a very good collection for do-it-yourself gamers. It's not a pick-and-go setup, like in HT or UT, but its not a lot more complex than what's in LT. For all those reasons, I use it with the options from Low-Tech in lower TL games, and were I running something for High-Tech era where I wanted more armor options, I'd definitely use it. It's very well done.
Agreed. I certainly didnt want to give the impression I don't like this system. I've even tinkered with adding AtE specific materials (steel belted radials, road signs, rebar and concrete, things like that), which is much easier to do in this system. Even if, as is likely, I have these all wrong, they fit into the current materials nicely, which makes for a better game.

I'd personally drop the cost of segmented plate, and make most of my proposed "salvaged" materials only able to use that option and solid (can't do proper plate when cutting up stop signs or old tires!). In DF, players would just skip that type of armor, but that's fine, DF goes all the way into TL 4, and has a munchkin feel, so I don't sweat it.
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