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Old 09-22-2017, 11:58 AM   #31
b-dog
 
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

So if there is no distinction between fallen angels and demons that were formed to be evil then couldn't you say there is no distinction between demons and undead? Or fairies or any monster? Or even any adversary? And why even have any description of monsters at all? Why not just have numerical stats? There is something in the dungeon with DR5, 20HP, reach C and does 1d6 damage from an attack at skill 18.
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:14 PM   #32
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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So if there is no distinction between fallen angels and demons that were formed to be evil then couldn't you say there is no distinction between demons and undead? Or fairies or any monster? Or even any adversary? And why even have any description of monsters at all? Why not just have numerical stats? There is something in the dungeon with DR5, 20HP, reach C and does 1d6 damage from an attack at skill 18.
I think that's taking it way out of proportion. One feeling there's no distinction between fallen angels and demons in a setting doesn't mean that there's no distinction between undead and demons, etc. it feels like you (the OP) are getting frustrated that there's not more agreement on your opinion of modeling AD&Ds demons / devils and extrapolating that to mean folks don't care about any descriptions, distinctions, etc.

There's many different cultural interpretations of demons, plus plenty of ones to be made up, and disagreement on any particular premise is just and only that.

What about supernatural creatures from India, China or Japan, which have entirely different cosmologies? Or the Greek underworld (Pluto, Cerebus), or struggles of Titans vs Olympians? Are Titans demons? Campaign 1 says "no", campaign 2 says "oh, yea ... ".
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:15 PM   #33
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Originally Posted by DemiBenson View Post
And also in Infernum, Book of the Damned (where, IIRC, demons were natives to Hell, and devils were fallen angels), so it's not unique to ADD.
It doesn't sound like they are fighting each other in that case.

In a game setting of mine "demons" are the offspring of escaped dream spirits of the moon goddess and the Shining Ones, rebel creations of the sun god (which are essentially "devils" in this kind of system but not called that).

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
So if there is no distinction between fallen angels and demons that were formed to be evil then couldn't you say there is no distinction between demons and undead? Or fairies or any monster? Or even any adversary? And why even have any description of monsters at all? Why not just have numerical stats? There is something in the dungeon with DR5, 20HP, reach C and does 1d6 damage from an attack at skill 18.
Just because it is a fact that the word "demon" isn't taxonomic in the real world doesn't make it a game rule.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 09-22-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:25 PM   #34
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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So if there is no distinction between fallen angels and demons that were formed to be evil then couldn't you say there is no distinction between demons and undead?
But don't blame. Fallen angels are just demons, that's right —it's about the divine spark involved and buried into creation. If along with demons you want "other" type of demons directly originated from some "evil principle" (whatever that is), you're merging opposite and mutually exclusive cosmologies (monotheism and dualism or maltheism), which isn't the best for fantasy nor dungeon fantasy worldbuilding.

But D&D's Blood War assumption isn't making this: it just divides infernal beings by alignments.

On the other hand, demons are evil creatures mainly from different orders of reality, and zombies are agglomerates of psychic and corporeal remnants from dead creatures.

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What about supernatural creatures from India, China or Japan, which have entirely different cosmologies? Or the Greek underworld (Pluto, Cerebus), or struggles of Titans vs Olympians? Are Titans demons? Campaign 1 says "no", campaign 2 says "oh, yea ... ".
I tried to take that into account above.
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:43 PM   #35
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

I never said that demons and devils should follow the alignment system of AD&D (chaotic evil vs lawful evil). I was just saying that fallen angels and demons born evil would be an interesting distinction just as a lich and a zombie are both corporeal undead but have a distinction.
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:46 PM   #36
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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What about supernatural creatures from India, China or Japan, which have entirely different cosmologies? Or the Greek underworld (Pluto, Cerebus), or struggles of Titans vs Olympians? Are Titans demons? Campaign 1 says "no", campaign 2 says "oh, yea ... ".
For me, I would have no problem with many different sorts of demons from different Hells. Actually I would much prefer it to just one Hell. The more variety of monsters the better for me.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:37 PM   #37
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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I never said that demons and devils should follow the alignment system of AD&D (chaotic evil vs lawful evil).
I'm mentioning it because at least implies a difference.

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I was just saying that fallen angels and demons born evil would be an interesting distinction just as a lich and a zombie are both corporeal undead but have a distinction.
Yes, liches and zombies are undead, evil, and still are different monsters. But things aren't the same for demons or devils despite the variations of the subject.

Some posts ago you mentioned mythological sources, and part of my point is that they make no distinction between fallen angels becoming demons, and inborn demons (*). The divine spark is the same (but it can be entirely missing if you take dualism, or "maltheism", instead).

Sometimes the corruption of the falling angels (an ontological change of state) is portrayed without any other birth, just like a man turning into a werewolf, but if you take into account broader perspectives with transmigration, angels becoming demons involve new & different demonic births.

Of course, you say that a distinction like the one you're pointing at could be interesting, and it's your preference, which as you know, is ok for your role-playing games. But you want the GURPS DF sub-line or the DFRPG to assume it, which is a different thing.

(*) If according to this or that culture they are called demons, asuras, rakshasas, titans, giants, etc., it makes no practical difference here. Even if many RPGs make entirely different creatures just from the different names:

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For me, I would have no problem with many different sorts of demons from different Hells. Actually I would much prefer it to just one Hell. The more variety of monsters the better for me.
Sometimes intermediary spirits, like yakshas, yokai, certain ghosts, can be called demons or be covered with ambiguities, but at this fundamental level things are clear.
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Old 09-22-2017, 02:15 PM   #38
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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I'm mentioning it because at least implies a difference.



Yes, liches and zombies are undead, evil, and still are different monsters. But things aren't the same for demons or devils despite the variations of the subject.

Some posts ago you mentioned mythological sources, and part of my point is that they make no distinction between fallen angels becoming demons, and inborn demons (*). The divine spark is the same (but it can be entirely missing if you take dualism, or "maltheism", instead).

Sometimes the corruption of the falling angels (an ontological change of state) is portrayed without any other birth, just like a man turning into a werewolf, but if you take into account broader perspectives with transmigration, angels becoming demons involve new & different demonic births.

Of course, you say that a distinction like the one you're pointing at could be interesting, and it's your preference, which as you know, is ok for your role-playing games. But you want the GURPS DF sub-line or the DFRPG to assume it, which is a different thing.

(*) If according to this or that culture they are called demons, asuras, rakshasas, titans, giants, etc., it makes no practical difference here. Even if many RPGs make entirely different creatures just from the different names:


Sometimes intermediary spirits, like yakshas, yokai, certain ghosts, can be called demons or be covered with ambiguities, but at this fundamental level things are clear.
You can say the same thing about goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, ogres and trolls. You could just call them all trolls or whatever but it would be less interesting IMO.

A difference between a fallen angel and an inborn demon might be that the fallen angel has traits and abilities the the ruling gods have while the inborn demons might be more monstrous or beastial.
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Old 09-22-2017, 02:46 PM   #39
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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You can say the same thing about goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, ogres and trolls. You could just call them all trolls or whatever but it would be less interesting IMO.
I partly agree. It's hard, but not impossible, to stress interesting and meaningful differences when the base creature/notion/concept remains the same. But not always there's the need for it.

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A difference between a fallen angel and an inborn demon might be that the fallen angel has traits and abilities the the ruling gods have while the inborn demons might be more monstrous or beastial.
If despite all you still want to make a difference about that, making falling angels just to "morph" into demons a la "men into werewolves" (I mean, without involving another birth, or discarding a complete transmutation without trace in favor of a partial one), I agree it could work, of course depending on the implementation of those traits.

For one, I very much prefer it to be more grounded into the dimensions of myth if it's possible.
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Old 09-22-2017, 03:25 PM   #40
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

I would think that a fallen angel would be aristocratic and care about order. They may be arrogant and vain and narcissistic as they would think of them selves as angels which are above the rest of creation. They may want to keep Divine law in place only they just want to oust the ruling gods and rule in their place.

Demons that just came into being may just want destruction and suffering. They may want to destroy Divine law and have survival of the strongest instead. They may just want to bring chaos into the world while fallen angels want to rule it with an iron fist.
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