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Old 09-19-2017, 09:19 AM   #1
Lameth
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Ritual Magic/Fanasty Quandary

I am maybe thinking about using Ritual Magic from Gurps Magic and Thaumaturgy. It outlines a system where its based on a Core skill, such as Thaumaturgy, and then each spell is a technique at the negative of its Prerequisite number. For my world this seems to fit. I want my spell casters to be more scholarly and if you find a spell it can be defaulted instead of learned as an individual skill. I want to have magic based on a over all concept and then each spell is aspects of that concept, not individual solo concepts.

My questions are:

Has anyone tried this for wizardry? And what tweaks did you make to maybe fix any issues with it I am not seeing yet?

Also, it seems like spells will be very low in skill now. How do you get passed the resistance to charms and curses? It seems like now the person may have a skill of only 11-15 for most spells, especially those that are heavy in prerequisite numbers like charm. It seems like it now makes spells easy to resist. Any help or advice would be great.
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:31 AM   #2
mlangsdorf
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Default Re: Ritual Magic/Fanasty Quandary

I used a variant of Ritual Magic (http://noschoolgrognard.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html) in one of my campaigns. The relevant changes:

* No core skill, but Thaumotology limited your maximum effective skill when using a grimoire
* RPM style grimoires gave a bonus for casting specific spells(ie, the "Tome of Fire" gives Fireball +3, Shape Fire +3)
* Default penalty was the better of the prerequisite count or -2-prerequisite count/2, because some spells have prerequisite counts of 12+ and asking people to cast spells at -12 or more is unreasonable.
* Magery didn't give a bonus to all Colleges, but you could buy Talents that covered a couple of colleges.

It worked pretty well for my purposes: spellcasters weren't completely flexible, but had very specific abilities, and were always looking for new grimoires to expand the spells they could cast easily. In a pinch, a spellcaster could use Luck or Destiny to cast anything from a known college, but they generally stuck to basic spells and/or spells that were in their grimoires.

I eventually went back and gave most spells a specific default penalty, ranging from 0 (easy spells like Ignite Fire) to -12 (Move Terrain, Raise Dead, and another potent spells). I did that mostly because it annoyed me that Fire Armor has a prerequisite count of 6 and Lightning Armor has a prerequisite count of 12, despite being basically the same spell. I also didn't like that potent spells like Great Haste were absurdly easy to cast (prerequisite count 1!) while weaker spells like Slow Fall were hard to cast (prerequisite count 4 or something). I don't think I ever share that anywhere, but it was basically an afternoon's work with a spreadsheet.

Anyway, Ritual Magic works okay as long as you have some way of moderating the penalties from absurdly long prerequisite chains.
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:37 AM   #3
A Ladder
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Default Re: Ritual Magic/Fanasty Quandary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lameth View Post
I am maybe thinking about using Ritual Magic from Gurps Magic and Thaumaturgy. It outlines a system where its based on a Core skill, such as Thaumaturgy, and then each spell is a technique at the negative of its Prerequisite number. For my world this seems to fit. I want my spell casters to be more scholarly and if you find a spell it can be defaulted instead of learned as an individual skill. I want to have magic based on a over all concept and then each spell is aspects of that concept, not individual solo concepts.

My questions are:

Has anyone tried this for wizardry? And what tweaks did you make to maybe fix any issues with it I am not seeing yet?

Also, it seems like spells will be very low in skill now. How do you get passed the resistance to charms and curses? It seems like now the person may have a skill of only 11-15 for most spells, especially those that are heavy in prerequisite numbers like charm. It seems like it now makes spells easy to resist. Any help or advice would be great.
When my current game wraps up and we start our new campaign I'll be using Ritual Magic. Here are the few tweaks that I'll be implementing.
1. No College Path defaults to Thaumatology. This stops players from just increasing thaumatology to increase all spells.
2. Spells are Average Techniques instead of Hard Techniques.
3. Spell defaults are based off of the number of prereqs and follow the bellow chart.
Prereq count, Ritual Magic Penalty
0, -0
1, -1
2, -2
3-4, -3
5-8, -4
9-12, -5
13-18, -6
19-24, -7
25-32, -8
33-40, -9
41+, -10

All these rules are pulled from advice from PK. I'll go see if I can find the post and put it here.
Edit: Found them: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...05&postcount=6 and http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=16

To get past resistance make sure the players buy their favorite curses or debuffs as techniques, so they can ignore the skill penalties. (See B242).
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Last edited by A Ladder; 09-19-2017 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:39 AM   #4
Lameth
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Ritual Magic/Fanasty Quandary

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
I used a variant of Ritual Magic (http://noschoolgrognard.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html) in one of my campaigns. The relevant changes:

* No core skill, but Thaumotology limited your maximum effective skill when using a grimoire
* RPM style grimoires gave a bonus for casting specific spells(ie, the "Tome of Fire" gives Fireball +3, Shape Fire +3)
* Default penalty was the better of the prerequisite count or -2-prerequisite count/2, because some spells have prerequisite counts of 12+ and asking people to cast spells at -12 or more is unreasonable.
* Magery didn't give a bonus to all Colleges, but you could buy Talents that covered a couple of colleges.

It worked pretty well for my purposes: spellcasters weren't completely flexible, but had very specific abilities, and were always looking for new grimoires to expand the spells they could cast easily. In a pinch, a spellcaster could use Luck or Destiny to cast anything from a known college, but they generally stuck to basic spells and/or spells that were in their grimoires.

I eventually went back and gave most spells a specific default penalty, ranging from 0 (easy spells like Ignite Fire) to -12 (Move Terrain, Raise Dead, and another potent spells). I did that mostly because it annoyed me that Fire Armor has a prerequisite count of 6 and Lightning Armor has a prerequisite count of 12, despite being basically the same spell. I also didn't like that potent spells like Great Haste were absurdly easy to cast (prerequisite count 1!) while weaker spells like Slow Fall were hard to cast (prerequisite count 4 or something). I don't think I ever share that anywhere, but it was basically an afternoon's work with a spreadsheet.

Anyway, Ritual Magic works okay as long as you have some way of moderating the penalties from absurdly long prerequisite chains.
I was also thinking about adding things like: If you use a wand to cast your spell, it could be +1. Using an Elder tongue to cast the spell could be +1 or +2. Allowing spell components that can used while casting to give a plus. Giving various talents or perks that could add to Colleges. Maybe doing something like Ritual Mastery but make it Spell Mastery and it gives a +2 to that spell only. etc..
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:47 AM   #5
Lameth
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Ritual Magic/Fanasty Quandary

[QUOTE=A Ladder;2123930]1. No College Path defaults to Thaumatology. /QUOTE]

Great thank you. Can you tell me why you did this? Does it not stop then the feel of the Wizard trying to cast the spell they just found, but they do not have the college? Yes its are another -6, but they can still try.
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:54 AM   #6
A Ladder
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Default Re: Ritual Magic/Fanasty Quandary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lameth View Post

Great thank you. Can you tell me why you did this? Does it not stop then the feel of the Wizard trying to cast the spell they just found, but they do not have the college? Yes its are another -6, but they can still try.
See the first link I posted. Essentially I would be annoyed at any wizard PC who realizes they can just accept a -6 to ALL spells and just up their Thaumatology skill, ignoring all else. This results in one dimensional wizards who have Thaum-36 +.
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:05 AM   #7
Lameth
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Ritual Magic/Fanasty Quandary

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
I used a variant of Ritual Magic (http://noschoolgrognard.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html) in one of my campaigns. The relevant changes:

* No core skill, but Thaumotology limited your maximum effective skill when using a grimoire
* RPM style grimoires gave a bonus for casting specific spells(ie, the "Tome of Fire" gives Fireball +3, Shape Fire +3)
* Default penalty was the better of the prerequisite count or -2-prerequisite count/2, because some spells have prerequisite counts of 12+ and asking people to cast spells at -12 or more is unreasonable.
* Magery didn't give a bonus to all Colleges, but you could buy Talents that covered a couple of colleges.

It worked pretty well for my purposes: spellcasters weren't completely flexible, but had very specific abilities, and were always looking for new grimoires to expand the spells they could cast easily. In a pinch, a spellcaster could use Luck or Destiny to cast anything from a known college, but they generally stuck to basic spells and/or spells that were in their grimoires.

I eventually went back and gave most spells a specific default penalty, ranging from 0 (easy spells like Ignite Fire) to -12 (Move Terrain, Raise Dead, and another potent spells). I did that mostly because it annoyed me that Fire Armor has a prerequisite count of 6 and Lightning Armor has a prerequisite count of 12, despite being basically the same spell. I also didn't like that potent spells like Great Haste were absurdly easy to cast (prerequisite count 1!) while weaker spells like Slow Fall were hard to cast (prerequisite count 4 or something). I don't think I ever share that anywhere, but it was basically an afternoon's work with a spreadsheet.

Anyway, Ritual Magic works okay as long as you have some way of moderating the penalties from absurdly long prerequisite chains.
great thank you!
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:08 AM   #8
sir_pudding
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: Ritual Magic/Fanasty Quandary

Instead of defaulting Colleges to Thaumatology, cap them at Thaumatology.
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:28 AM   #9
Lameth
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Ritual Magic/Fanasty Quandary

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Instead of defaulting Colleges to Thaumatology, cap them at Thaumatology.
I was going to do this. Cap/Core Skill is either Thaumaturgy for my true "wizards" [schools, masters/apprentices, etc.] and Occultism [I call this new skill "Principles of Magic"] for your more common Mage or spell caster.

then each college is purchased as a IQ/VH. Each Spell is a Average or Hard technique. Hard is only reserved for those spells deemed "VH" or special. All spells have a negative from 0 to -X and its loosely based on their prerequisites but scaled per the chart from the poster above.

If you do not have the college I was going to allow you to default that newly found spell at the natural default to the college plus a -6 or more. Since I do not allow people to just "try" a spell they have not found I thought it was an easy way of doing it and stopping someone from just trying a spell they thought of or just saw. All spells are a combination of words of power, therefore you need the right words and chain of saying them, so you just cant make it up on the spot.

Does this work?
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Old 09-22-2017, 02:18 AM   #10
Lameth
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Ritual Magic/Fanasty Quandary

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Ladder View Post
When my current game wraps up and we start our new campaign I'll be using Ritual Magic. Here are the few tweaks that I'll be implementing.
1. No College Path defaults to Thaumatology. This stops players from just increasing thaumatology to increase all spells.
2. Spells are Average Techniques instead of Hard Techniques.
3. Spell defaults are based off of the number of prereqs and follow the bellow chart.
Prereq count, Ritual Magic Penalty
0, -0
1, -1
2, -2
3-4, -3
5-8, -4
9-12, -5
13-18, -6
19-24, -7
25-32, -8
33-40, -9
41+, -10

All these rules are pulled from advice from PK. I'll go see if I can find the post and put it here.
Edit: Found them: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...05&postcount=6 and http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=16

To get past resistance make sure the players buy their favorite curses or debuffs as techniques, so they can ignore the skill penalties. (See B242).
Ok so read your posts and loved it. My issue is can the spells go above the college skill? Because with talents and perks they very much can. Also I allow special tool like wands and staves that can add to skill.
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