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Old 09-19-2017, 01:41 PM   #11
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Size Modifier/Attributes

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
While a larger creature can fit more brain power, there's no strong reason to think it will actually do so, and in any case since you're converting magical beasts mundane scaling laws are of limited relevance.

On the issue of DX, a large creature will have larger manipulators, and will thus have issues with manipulating small objects. It will also take somewhat longer to perform any given action. It's not clear that this is best implemented as DX, though.
Type of brain matters even more than size. Look at parrots capable of rudimentary language far more advanced that any ape save man. Bird brains pack far more intelligence into a set volume than primates', and both pack in far more than carnivora order's, etc.
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Old 09-19-2017, 01:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: Size Modifier/Attributes

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Type of brain matters even more than size.
This should not be interpreted as meaning size doesn't matter. There's almost certainly a minimum size for any given level of intelligence, though there may not be a maximum.
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Old 09-19-2017, 02:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: Size Modifier/Attributes

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This should not be interpreted as meaning size doesn't matter. There's almost certainly a minimum size for any given level of intelligence, though there may not be a maximum.
Intelligence in animals seems to be based on shape of the brain and proportionate size of the brain compared to the overall skull and/or body as opposed to absolute size. IIRC, all animals that recognize their own reflections (a sizable percentage of whom are tool users) have proportionately larger brains than those of similar size who can't.

But then, I'm not a biologist, and I can't say if I'm remembering what I read about this issue properly.
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Old 09-19-2017, 03:34 PM   #14
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Default Re: Size Modifier/Attributes

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This should not be interpreted as meaning size doesn't matter. There's almost certainly a minimum size for any given level of intelligence, though there may not be a maximum.
Of course. No configuration could make a dozen neurons give human level sapience.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:57 AM   #15
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Default Re: Size Modifier/Attributes

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Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
Intelligence in animals seems to be based on shape of the brain and proportionate size of the brain compared to the overall skull and/or body as opposed to absolute size. IIRC, all animals that recognize their own reflections (a sizable percentage of whom are tool users) have proportionately larger brains than those of similar size who can't.
When I was studying philosophy, we had biology classes (a mandatory for our exam). The biology teacher (not just a philosopher: a true biologist, coming from the scientific department of the university) explained us that recent studies proved that animal intelligence neither depend on the shape of their brain, nor on its proportional size. It depends on the number of neural connections. Then, he told us that birds had as many neural connections as humans. They have a miniaturized brain, he said.

Recent articles I read or documentaries I watched about birds sound to prove that he was right: birds can use tools with an incredible understanding and even solve some mathematical problems (as soon as there is an award, of course, that is as soon as you built a machine which gives them food when they do the right answer for instance).

So, I really think that IQ doesn't depend on the size. Of course, as Flyndaran said it, a dozen neurons won't ever be able to give human intelligence. Now, birds neurons are just smaller than human ones ... And for SM -7 dragons, in a fantasy world (where magic probably do exist), -35 to IQ would just sound unbelievable. There is absolutely no consistent reason to give them a lower IQ or DX.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:27 AM   #16
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Default Re: Size Modifier/Attributes

I don't think anyone has the evidence to definitively prove one specific reason for human level intelligence.
We know that size matters some, type matters some, and body to brain size ratios matter some. But exactly how much each one matters is arguable.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:48 AM   #17
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Default Re: Size Modifier/Attributes

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I don't think anyone has the evidence to definitively prove one specific reason for human level intelligence.
Actually nobody has evidence to definitely prove anything.

That is what epistemology teach us. Every demonstration relies on postulates that cannot be demonstrated.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: Size Modifier/Attributes

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This is for humaniods not dragons and it just for ST, HT and DR I need it in DX, IQ and hit points plus movement.
Are you perhaps thinking of some other homemade stuff? The GULLIVER Mini that Rasputin mentioned definitely is for dragons, and humanoids, and anything else. And it explicitly addresses DX, IQ, HP, and Move.

In short, it's a one-page summary of how to build odd-size characters, pointing to existing mods where GURPS has 'em and suggesting mods where GURPS doesn't.

First up: Adjusting ST, HP, DR, and weight for SM. (That's sort of GURPS canon, but never quite made as clear as you might want, especially in Basic Set; hence fan-made summaries.)

Then there's a pointer to Bio-Tech for its suggested IQ adjustments, and my own suggestions for adjusting HT, DX, and Basic Move, plus a very optional suggestion for further adjusting ST for realistically blocky big creatures and spindly small ones.

And that's about it, beyond a really short summary of effects on skills and combat, and a second page with miscellaneous notes and design examples.

Whether or not that sounds useful to you, I'll add one big caveat here: While it's possible to suggest "correct" scaling of ST and weight with size, and "believable" ST and weight for a creature's size, any mods to IQ, DX, and HT are pure guesswork, really nothing more than "This sounds good, I guess". So don't hesitate to modify those stats as you see fit; they're not even "real" stats to begin with!
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Old 09-20-2017, 03:01 PM   #19
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Default Re: Size Modifier/Attributes

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
Are you perhaps thinking of some other homemade stuff? The GULLIVER Mini that Rasputin mentioned definitely is for dragons, and humanoids, and anything else. And it explicitly addresses DX, IQ, HP, and Move.

In short, it's a one-page summary of how to build odd-size characters, pointing to existing mods where GURPS has 'em and suggesting mods where GURPS doesn't.

First up: Adjusting ST, HP, DR, and weight for SM. (That's sort of GURPS canon, but never quite made as clear as you might want, especially in Basic Set; hence fan-made summaries.)

Then there's a pointer to Bio-Tech for its suggested IQ adjustments, and my own suggestions for adjusting HT, DX, and Basic Move, plus a very optional suggestion for further adjusting ST for realistically blocky big creatures and spindly small ones.

And that's about it, beyond a really short summary of effects on skills and combat, and a second page with miscellaneous notes and design examples.

Whether or not that sounds useful to you, I'll add one big caveat here: While it's possible to suggest "correct" scaling of ST and weight with size, and "believable" ST and weight for a creature's size, any mods to IQ, DX, and HT are pure guesswork, really nothing more than "This sounds good, I guess". So don't hesitate to modify those stats as you see fit; they're not even "real" stats to begin with!
I just wanted to thank you really quick for the great work you've done in modernizing the Gulliver stuff; Gulliver Mini is particularly great as a resource which I did not realize existed until seeing this very thread.
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:01 AM   #20
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Default Re: Size Modifier/Attributes

Thank you! GURPS 4e really did a lot to clean up handling of ST, HP, size, and related matters; it's much easier to game odd beings in 4e without a lot of house rules. (Always room for some, though!)

If anyone wants to see a great compilation of all SM-related GURPS rules from BS, Bio-Tech, Powers, etc., try this page:
http://ottgaming.grimoire.ca/Borderlands/Size_Modifier

(Sorry, but off the top of my head I'm forgetting who compiled this...)
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