Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-17-2017, 10:57 AM   #11
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

Standard, out-of-the-box knights can have Fearlessness, which adds to Will "whenever you make a Fright Check . . . or roll to resist supernatural fear." Fear won't win against an evil knight. Neither will the typical HT-resisted one-shot-kills, like Entombment and Flesh to Stone – not with base HT 13, +1 to +6 more to HT, and Fit or Very Fit.

Knights are mostly vulnerable to non-fear-based mind control, which is why the GM planning to use them as enemies should think about tossing a few points of advantage allocation and quirk payoff into those things – or just putting a Moly amulet around the knight's neck. If the Moly amulet works due to evil clerical magic that doesn't treat good people kindly, the PCs won't be so keen to see it as treasure . . .
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My LiveJournal [Just GURPS News][Just The Company]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2017, 12:36 PM   #12
Gnomasz
 
Gnomasz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Poland
Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Set View Post
Save or die spells aren't fun, period. They are frustrating when the players get targeted by them, and anti-climatic when the players cast them.
If save or die spells in general are what you dislike (and not just cheap save or die spells), no system will really solve the problem: using Sorcery, you can build an Affliction-based save or die spell. If you aren't afraid of lots of tweaking, you might want to look into Pyramid #3/83, which has an article on applying Technical Grappling rules to possessions -- with some work, it might let you change any supernatural effect from save-or-die to a longer struggle. Be wary, though, it's just a random idea -- I haven't tried to use it that way. It might be clunky or just too much work.
__________________
I'm a 6′ Pole. Of course I'm useful!
Gnomasz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2017, 03:03 PM   #13
simply Nathan
formerly known as 'Kenneth Latrans'
 
simply Nathan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wyoming, Michigan
Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

I think the standard skill-based magic is the best for wizards, but I don't like applying that system to clerics and druids. I always considered it a kludgy hack in D&D that clerics used the same basic magic system for their miracles that wizards do for their spells, so in GURPS I prefer Holy advantages like Higher Purpose, Faith Healing, True Faith, and Blessed(Heroic Feats), and the Divine Favor system.
__________________
Ba-weep granah wheep minibon. Wubba lubba dub dub.
simply Nathan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2017, 03:36 PM   #14
evileeyore
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by simply Nathan View Post
I think the standard skill-based magic is the best for wizards, but I don't like applying that system to clerics and druids. I always considered it a kludgy hack in D&D that clerics used the same basic magic system for their miracles that wizards do for their spells, so in GURPS I prefer Holy advantages like Higher Purpose, Faith Healing, True Faith, and Blessed(Heroic Feats), and the Divine Favor system.
I actually agree.

Except I also don't like Spells as Skills in general. My next serious fantasy game will probably use RPM for mages, Divine Favor for 'pure' clerical magic (though Theurgists will probably also use RPM), and others using Sorcery as "Pact mages", demonically infested, etc.
__________________
Feel free to steal, borrow, fold, spindle, mutilate any rule, advantage, etc I come up with it.
evileeyore is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2017, 05:35 PM   #15
Set
 
Set's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
And that's OSR D&D in a nutshell, which is what DF does.
The new D&D is miles ahead of the old D&D. Reviving old school is bad. At least, as far as rules are concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
No. Because there is no way to 'balance' those spells.
I think it is quite possible, but indeed very hard to do. As I said, not completely balance, but at least partially so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
DF really screams out for Spells as Skills (Magic) or Effect Shaping (Path/Book) or Energy Accumulation (RPM/Incantation).
Spells as skills would be OK if they costed more investment in specific schools and if there weren't so many OP spells.

In fact, I prefer spell books and lists over shaping the world at will for wizards in a fantasy game. Sure, shaping is fun for an Avatar or Full Metal Alchemist kind of world, but for classic high fantasy settings, spell lists fit way better, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
You obviously do not follow the school of Enough Violence Solves All Problems.
This is very much true. And in a high fantasy setting even more so.
Always? No. But it's way, way harder to design fun and thrilling adventures - especially for high fantasy - that don't have very important combats.


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johansen View Post
Also, why build an evil knight with a low willpower in a magical world? Similarly why wouldn't he have some magical protection or a wizard of his own? Equal access is a form of balance.
Problem is like, a henchman-level Apprentice can snuff a Knight stronger than an Adventurer in a single roll - not a lucky one, just a standard, average roll. This shouldn't exist, under any situation whatsoever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Standard, out-of-the-box knights can have Fearlessness, which adds to Will "whenever you make a Fright Check . . . or roll to resist supernatural fear." Fear won't win against an evil knight. Neither will the typical HT-resisted one-shot-kills, like Entombment and Flesh to Stone – not with base HT 13, +1 to +6 more to HT, and Fit or Very Fit.
True enough. That was a bad example. But what I want to say is: unless you have specific protection against those one-shot spells, you have a good chance at being utterly destroyed by them, no matter how strong you are.
This would be completely realistic in a real world setting with Magic, but in High Fantasy the average apprentice out of the academy can't insta-gib an adventurer way more experienced, unless he gets very, very lucky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Knights are mostly vulnerable to non-fear-based mind control, which is why the GM planning to use them as enemies should think about tossing a few points of advantage allocation and quirk payoff into those things – or just putting a Moly amulet around the knight's neck. If the Moly amulet works due to evil clerical magic that doesn't treat good people kindly, the PCs won't be so keen to see it as treasure . . .
This is my problem, having to counter specific threats with magical things. Again, in high fantasy those powerful guys can most of the times simply resist. Because of the Rule of Fun. It is anti-climatic to win the boss fight in a single spell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnomasz View Post
If save or die spells in general are what you dislike (and not just cheap save or die spells), no system will really solve the problem: using Sorcery, you can build an Affliction-based save or die spell. If you aren't afraid of lots of tweaking, you might want to look into Pyramid #3/83, which has an article on applying Technical Grappling rules to possessions -- with some work, it might let you change any supernatural effect from save-or-die to a longer struggle. Be wary, though, it's just a random idea -- I haven't tried to use it that way. It might be clunky or just too much work.
Nice suggestion, but it seems clumsy to me on a first look. I'll tinker with it later and see if it works for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by simply Nathan View Post
I think the standard skill-based magic is the best for wizards, but I don't like applying that system to clerics and druids. I always considered it a kludgy hack in D&D that clerics used the same basic magic system for their miracles that wizards do for their spells, so in GURPS I prefer Holy advantages like Higher Purpose, Faith Healing, True Faith, and Blessed(Heroic Feats), and the Divine Favor system.
I agree that divine magic should be completely different from arcane magic. However, IIRC all of those systems have those imbalances with save-or-die spells.
Set is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2017, 05:43 PM   #16
Set
 
Set's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

Maybe the best approach to date to the save-or-die spells is the D&D Next one: no spell lasts for such a long time, the target has a chance to recover on every turn.
Bosses have Legendary Resistance, allowing them to reroll bad saves.

How would be the best way to implement this on GURPS while not severely handicapping offensive debuffer mages? Maybe lowering the costs?

Also, how to require more specialization from the Wizards without badly handicapping them? I was thinking maybe Magery bonuses would only apply to a single school or two closely related schools? For example, Magery 0 is universal, then Magery 1+ would require specialization.
Maybe the full bonuses would only apply to one school, but may apply at a reduced rate to the others.
But then it would make it way better to simply pump IQ. So maybe Magery also limits how much IQ you can have as a base for a determined school of Magic?

I don't know the system very well, so if anyone could help me develop those ideas in a way that is balanced with the rest of Dungeon Fantasy, I'd be happy.
Set is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2017, 06:14 PM   #17
mr beer
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

There are numerous ways to make Boss monsters resistant to save-or-die attacks. Kromm just went through a specific example, our hypothetical Evil Knight.

It's the same 'problem' as having a highly skill fighter using, for example, Feint / Target Eye combos, letting them reliably one-shot an opponent every second. You just make sure that some fights have Zombies or Golems or flying witches or something else that isn't vulnerable to their one-shot fight ender.
mr beer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2017, 06:25 PM   #18
Set
 
Set's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
There are numerous ways to make Boss monsters resistant to save-or-die attacks. Kromm just went through a specific example, our hypothetical Evil Knight.

It's the same 'problem' as having a highly skill fighter using, for example, Feint / Target Eye combos, letting them reliably one-shot an opponent every second. You just make sure that some fights have Zombies or Golems or flying witches or something else that isn't vulnerable to their one-shot fight ender.
It isn't really the same, as the Feint needs a good roll to be actually good, and even then, he would have to make it a Deceptive Attack otherwise the enemy would have a very good chance of defending him/herself. Also, a Fighter needs to be way stronger and more specialized than the Wizard to pull this off.

Also, it isn't really guaranteed to be a fight-ender, whereas the magic effects last like 1 minute, which is 60 turns.
Set is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2017, 09:14 PM   #19
mr beer
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Set View Post
It isn't really the same, as the Feint needs a good roll to be actually good, and even then, he would have to make it a Deceptive Attack otherwise the enemy would have a very good chance of defending him/herself. Also, a Fighter needs to be way stronger and more specialized than the Wizard to pull this off.

Also, it isn't really guaranteed to be a fight-ender, whereas the magic effects last like 1 minute, which is 60 turns.
In DF you can have a fighter with skill-20 and Extra Attack straight out of the box, that's without putting points into Techniques or extra skill. This fighter doesn't need good rolls on Feint or to use Deceptive Attack in order to bypass skill-14 opponents.

A Magery +6 wizard out of the box has a similar skill of 19 but has the range penalty to contend with, taking the roll from 'probably succeeds, now lets check if they resist' through to 'no chance'.

There are issues with Magic but save-or-die isn't a problem IMO.

Last edited by mr beer; 09-17-2017 at 09:22 PM.
mr beer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2017, 09:55 PM   #20
Set
 
Set's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
In DF you can have a fighter with skill-20 and Extra Attack straight out of the box, that's without putting points into Techniques or extra skill. This fighter doesn't need good rolls on Feint or to use Deceptive Attack in order to bypass skill-14 opponents.

A Magery +6 wizard out of the box has a similar skill of 19 but has the range penalty to contend with, taking the roll from 'probably succeeds, now lets check if they resist' through to 'no chance'.

There are issues with Magic but save-or-die isn't a problem IMO.
Skill-14 opponents may die to a single roll, that's not a problem.
Problem is Skill-25 opponents "dying" to a single roll because they aren't wearing special protection against that kind of attack in particular.

I hate to tailor the enemies (besides Challenges) to the players. (I even try to not tailor the Challenges and create them so they make sense. You wandered into a dragon's den? Better run. He won't be injured just because you're the heroes.)

The Angry GM has an excellent series on building meaningful combats, I believe I saw the example below on his guide.

Why would a garrison be specifically designed to fight and barely lose to a party consisting of a wizard, a scout, a knight and a cleric?

That's straight out bad GMing in my opinion.

EDIT: I wanted to clarify: If you tailor the world to fit like a glove to whatever characters the players create, and whatever choice they take, those are not real choices - they become illusion of choice.

Of course, who am I to say how people should play, right? I'm merely stating my opinion, but consider this: RPG is a game of choices. If the players' choices don't matter, what's the point of playing at all?

Last edited by Set; 09-17-2017 at 09:59 PM.
Set is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.