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Old 09-21-2017, 02:22 AM   #51
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
Realism aside, going purely by TechGrap rules, if the intent is to set up a swing-cut to neck with a knife, what does grappling the head (-3 to skill) do which grappling the torso (-0 to skill) doesn't?

Both provide referred control to the neck. Both allow the control points to be spent to reduce hit penalties or enhance damage.
1). It's strongly implied that some grapples in this area allows you to stop someone shouting out* . Even if it wasn't inferred by Fairburn's I certainly rule that way as GM.


2). As a GM I'd have a much easier time agreeing a grapple to the head followed by stab to the neck would qualify for the grab and smash bonus to the neck. Than a grapple to the torso followed by a stab to the neck.

With a thr dagger that extra +2 to damage can be quite a significant portion of inflicted injury. The trick here is to inflict as much injury as fast as you can in order to get to certain points with the target after all.


*although If I was using TG I'd possible make that effect a function of how many CP you got, so not automatically silenced by a 1CP head/face grapple. But a lot of this is going to be done "by eye" so to speak anyway,

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-21-2017 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 09-21-2017, 01:12 PM   #52
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Originally Posted by Set View Post
Of course, slitting someone's throat should probably do more damage than a tip slash, but I wanted to go strictly by the book. Maybe in my tables I'd rule it as doing the same damage as the impaling (no -2 reduction for slash).
This is a draw cut, which GURPS doesn't really have rules for. I've made my own. Most relevant here is the note that a knife grapple to the neck can be considered as the first half of the Draw Cut - the typical method would be to use an All Out Attack (Determined) with Telegraphic Attack to grapple the Face and Neck* from behind, then next round use Draw Cut at +6 (net +4, and ignore hit location penalties) to slit the throat, probably with All Out Attack (Strong) and if using Technical Grappling cashing in some of the CP from the grapple to improve damage. Doing it in one round would be a bit more difficult - you'd probably use All Out Attack (Double) instead, so the grapple would be a bit harder to hit with and the throat slitting would do less damage.

*I can't recall if this is in the books anywhere, but personally I think grappling two hit locations - one with each hand - makes perfect sense. Simply use the greater of the two hit location penalties, and count half the CP as being toward one location, half toward the other. The point here of doing Face and Neck is that the first prevents the target from speaking, the second gets you setup to slit his throat.

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Originally Posted by Set View Post
Yep, the neck is usually way less protected than the torso - in fact, the torso is usually the most protected area - maybe the skull can be more protected, but usually not by non-vision-restricting helmets.
Skull can be pretty heavily protected without restricting your vision too much, it's the Face that's a problem here. Most of the loadouts in Loadouts: Low Tech Armor have as much if not more armor on the Skull than on the Chest, and that's not even accounting for the Skull's innate DR 2.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
So try and do this with run of mill skill levels and no special training in sentry removal combinations, and the chance of neck armour becoming the factor that makes the difference drops off anyway, making it moot. I.e there's a reason why this tended to be preserve of the specially trained.

Is neck armour a compromise of protection, discomfort and distraction, yeah of course but to an extent that's all armour in all situations, and since this was a known compromise it was also something worked on.
Unless more advanced/expensive than what a sentry would typically have access to, neck armor is typically going to actively reduce the sentry's ability to actually do their job of spotting suspicious actors. Additionally, the type of actor who is likely to be skilled enough to actually sneak up on and silently remove the sentry with a knife to the throat is likely skilled enough that typical neck armor isn't going to severely limit his ability to kill the sentry. Thus, actually seeing the infiltrator before he reaches the sentry is far more important than the marginal increase in survivability once you've already failed offered by the neck armor.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
But equally I think we can overstate the negative effects of armour. The concept of a sentry or patrol that constantly swivelling it head to and fro, and thus effective sentry work is prevented by any neck armour is a bit of a misnomer ;-)
The sentry doesn't have to constantly move his head back and forth, but being able to move it freely will increase his effective arc of vision, making him much harder to sneak up on.

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Maybe but his job is to raise the alarm, being alive afterwards is more a personal goal ;-)
No, his job - in regards to stealthy infiltrators - is to prevent them from getting in in the first place. A guard who manages to scream "Help I'm being murd-" *GURKBURBLETHUD* tells the others that there is a hostile actor somewhere near him, but doesn't actively prevent the infiltrator from getting past the sentry, nor does it give any further intelligence on the target (direction the target ran, what he looks like, if he was alone, etc). Still, if you see your sentries as little more than noisemaking traps that bleed, I guess he accomplished his purpose.
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Old 09-21-2017, 01:17 PM   #53
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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No, his job - in regards to stealthy infiltrators - is to prevent them from getting in in the first place.
No, that's the job of a guard. The job of a sentry is to notice that the infiltrators exist and raise an alert so superior force can be brought to bear.
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:18 PM   #54
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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No, that's the job of a guard. The job of a sentry is to notice that the infiltrators exist and raise an alert so superior force can be brought to bear.
The English words "Guard" and "Sentry" have sufficient overlap that calling them synonyms wouldn't be inaccurate. According to dictionary.com, a sentry is "1. a soldier stationed at a place to stand guard and prevent the passage of unauthorized persons, watch for fires, etc., especially a sentinel stationed at a pass, gate, opening in a defense work, or the like. / 2. a member of a guard or watch." So, I'll stand by my statement.
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:37 PM   #55
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

In the US the job is pretty clearly defined whatever you call it, and is pretty much the one thing (well 11 things) every serviceman is supposed to know:
http://www.military.com/join-armed-f...al-orders.html

Note that "I will not be garroted" isn't on there.
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Old 09-21-2017, 03:13 PM   #56
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Note that "I will not be garroted" isn't on there.
Though it's an indirect requirement, unless you have the ability to perform the other 11 tasks after being garroted.
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:17 PM   #57
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Though it's an indirect requirement, unless you have the ability to perform the other 11 tasks after being garroted.
My point is that it supports what you are saying. The duty of a sentry/guard/firewatch/whatever is primarily sensory. Nobody is expected to repel an assault by himself.
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Old 09-21-2017, 08:15 PM   #58
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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My point is that it supports what you are saying. The duty of a sentry/guard/firewatch/whatever is primarily sensory. Nobody is expected to repel an assault by himself.
I'm not talking about a sentry's duties when the base gets assaulted in the night, I'm talking about a sentry's duties with regards to an infiltrator (the sort of situation where one is more likely to expect some up-close-and-personal sentry removal). Still, we've gotten into the point where we're essentially arguing over the meaning of a word, and that never gets anyone anywhere, so I'll just drop my little "arguably failed" aside. I'll still say that neck armor isn't very likely on a sentry/guard/whatever you want to call the guy the infiltrator is killing, but I think I've made my point clear enough and will probably drop it now, rather than continuing to derail this thread.

Set, does my Draw Cut suggestion look like something you'd want to use for the whole throat-slitting bit?
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Old 09-21-2017, 08:58 PM   #59
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Set, does my Draw Cut suggestion look like something you'd want to use for the whole throat-slitting bit?
Just from my experience with animals I would say starting with a thrust is the most effective way to do it. YMMV however but starting the cut with the blade against the inside of the spine means you definately cut all the vital bits and there is less chance of the blade skipping off and hard objects in the way, like armour. Also you are not cutting towards yourself with a knife while restraining a struggling target.
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Last edited by (E); 09-21-2017 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:20 PM   #60
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Set, does my Draw Cut suggestion look like something you'd want to use for the whole throat-slitting bit?
Hey! If I understand correctly, your rule is divided in two attacks: one to place the blade, and another to slice the target?
Does the first hit deal any damage?

It's good that it has a default that's not so punishing. The way I've constructed the technique here means it's almost mandatory to have it trained, otherwise you'll suffer something like -10 on each hit.
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