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Old 09-16-2017, 06:05 PM   #31
Set
 
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Also, people with cut throats can still make plenty of incoherent noise. After studying Martial Arts: Fairbairn Close Combat Systems a bit, I concluded that the easier way under GURPS was AoA (Double) for a Telegraphic grapple to the jaw (net +1 to hit) and a stab to the vitals, which are easier to hit than the neck locations.
Problem with vitals is: it usually has more protection than the neck.
In a low-tech setting, guards will probably have like 4~6 DR on the chest, and 0 on the neck.

Of course, if you target is unarmored, it is better to do two stabs to the vitals.



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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
I don't understand the point of grappling the jaw. What advantage does that have?
Actually it is a Choke Hold. Somewhere, in one of the books (I think Fairbarn's, though I'm not entirely sure), there is a rule that says when you Choke Hold you can silence your victim.
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Old 09-17-2017, 05:46 AM   #32
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Originally Posted by Set View Post
Problem with vitals is: it usually has more protection than the neck.
In a low-tech setting, guards will probably have like 4~6 DR on the chest, and 0 on the neck.

Maybe but Gorgets, aventails etc. Also stuff like stiffened/reinforced collars to ward of garrottes etc. People have been sneaking up on each other and doing horrible things to necks for a long time, so people were aware of the risk of it.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Set View Post
Actually it is a Choke Hold. Somewhere, in one of the books (I think Fairbarn's, though I'm not entirely sure), there is a rule that says when you Choke Hold you can silence your victim.
Yep, but it doesn't have to be a choke hold (going by Fairbarn's) Both the:

Number 13 Sentry Hold:

and

Number 28 Use of the Knife

Make the same point about holding the mouth closed, the former is a choke hold, but the latter is a grapple to the face

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-17-2017 at 05:59 AM.
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Old 09-17-2017, 04:09 PM   #33
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Originally Posted by Set View Post
You're grappling with Judo.
You have Ambidexterity.

Add:
+1 if you're grappling with Wrestling.
+5 if you need Ambidexterity.
or
+1 to get a combat perk for offhand unarmed attacks only.
It's been brought to my attention just recently, so I'm not sure, but I don't think you need Ambidexterity nor Off-Hand Weapon Training for unarmed strikes: it's only clearly stated for Karate that you don't, but note that neither Basic's OHWT technique nor Martial Arts' perk mentions any unarmed combat skill as a valid specialty.
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Old 09-17-2017, 06:47 PM   #34
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Originally Posted by Gnomasz View Post
It's been brought to my attention just recently, so I'm not sure, but I don't think you need Ambidexterity nor Off-Hand Weapon Training for unarmed strikes: it's only clearly stated for Karate that you don't, but note that neither Basic's OHWT technique nor Martial Arts' perk mentions any unarmed combat skill as a valid specialty.
The table on B547 lists the modifier:
"Other Actions by the Attacker:
Off-hand Attack: -4 (no penalty w. Ambidexterity)."

Since it doesn't specify it only applies to weapons, I'd say it does apply to unarmed attacks as well.
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Old 09-18-2017, 02:39 AM   #35
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Seemingly not. Though I'd be happy to be wrong.
P. 137, crippling the spine (threshold in excess of HP) in the neck inflicts Quadriplegic. Automatic for some attacks.

P. 138, major wounds (threshold of HP/2) to the neck can cause a variety of lasting or permanent crippling injuries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Set View Post
The table on B547 lists the modifier:
"Other Actions by the Attacker:
Off-hand Attack: -4 (no penalty w. Ambidexterity)."

Since it doesn't specify it only applies to weapons, I'd say it does apply to unarmed attacks as well.
I am fairly sure that there's something in one of the FAQs about this, but at any rate the existence of the Strong and Weak Hands Harsh Realism option means this can't be the case otherwise.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 09-18-2017 at 02:43 AM.
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:55 AM   #36
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Originally Posted by Set View Post
The table on B547 lists the modifier:
"Other Actions by the Attacker:
Off-hand Attack: -4 (no penalty w. Ambidexterity)."

Since it doesn't specify it only applies to weapons, I'd say it does apply to unarmed attacks as well.
It's gone around several times but it has been established by Kromm on the forums that trained unarmed attacks do not have off-hand penalties. Yes, it's a bit ambiguous, but that is the intent.
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Old 09-18-2017, 09:55 AM   #37
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

Excellent post, Set! I particularly enjoyed the small font commentary. Very entertaining.

10/10 would read again/more.

Also, I was also curious about the tip slash. I see your point, but I think a tip slash is really meant to simulate very low-powered (minimal leverage) cuts with just the tip of an otherwise non-cutting weapon.

For my money, the actual throat cut here should use the normal sw damage for a knife. (Daggers, OTOH, don't do sw cut damage, so tip slash would be appropriate there.)
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Old 09-18-2017, 10:19 AM   #38
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Also, people with cut throats can still make plenty of incoherent noise. After studying Martial Arts: Fairbairn Close Combat Systems a bit, I concluded that the easier way under GURPS was AoA (Double) for a Telegraphic grapple to the jaw (net +1 to hit) and a stab to the vitals, which are easier to hit than the neck locations.
My understanding from both Martial Arts: Fairbairn Close Combat Systems & US Army Rangers I know, is that Jondallman is correct.
AoA Double: Grapple the mouth & stab vitals (kidney). Often followed up with a throat cut, but not always as it seems to be somewhat noisy.
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Old 09-18-2017, 11:17 PM   #39
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Realistically, there ought to be a crippling
threshold for the throat.
There is, hidden away in Biotech on page 123. Crushing injury over HP/2 to the Neck crushes the trachea, causing choking. Without exotic abilities (Doesn't Breathe, high levels of Regeneration, etc) or magical healing, the character will require an emergency tracheotomy or will die, even if he suffers only Temporary Crippling. Cutting injury would probably call for a greater threshold*, as for it to cause suffocation I believe you need to have some pretty decent damage such that the character bleeds through his trachea into his lungs, resulting in him quite literally drowning to death in his own blood... which is markedly more difficult to fix than just a tracheotomy.

*Well, realistically I think most cutting weapons would also crush the trachea while they were at it. Thus, I'd probably say cutting injury over 2/3 HP (with crushing being 1.5x and cutting being 2x, this is the same amount of penetrating damage as is needed for crushing damage to do it) also crushes the trachea, and save the "drowning in your own blood" bit for particularly brutal artery/vein attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Maybe but Gorgets, aventails etc. Also stuff like stiffened/reinforced collars to ward of garrottes etc. People have been sneaking up on each other and doing horrible things to necks for a long time, so people were aware of the risk of it.
I believe neck armor is incredibly uncomfortable, so sentries could probably avoid it (for a sentry, it's only useful if you've arguably already failed in your job, after all). Additionally, I think a lot of rigid neck armor should be treated as having Armor Gaps. That said, while Neck isn't the worst place to target for some stabby sentry removal, it certainly isn't the best.
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Old 09-19-2017, 12:09 AM   #40
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
There is, hidden away in Biotech on page 123. Crushing injury over HP/2 to the Neck crushes the trachea, causing choking. Without exotic abilities (Doesn't Breathe, high levels of Regeneration, etc) or magical healing, the character will require an emergency tracheotomy or will die, even if he suffers only Temporary Crippling. Cutting injury would probably call for a greater threshold*, as for it to cause suffocation I believe you need to have some pretty decent damage such that the character bleeds through his trachea into his lungs, resulting in him quite literally drowning to death in his own blood... which is markedly more difficult to fix than just a tracheotomy.

*Well, realistically I think most cutting weapons would also crush the trachea while they were at it. Thus, I'd probably say cutting injury over 2/3 HP (with crushing being 1.5x and cutting being 2x, this is the same amount of penetrating damage as is needed for crushing damage to do it) also crushes the trachea, and save the "drowning in your own blood" bit for particularly brutal artery/vein attacks.



I believe neck armor is incredibly uncomfortable, so sentries could probably avoid it (for a sentry, it's only useful if you've arguably already failed in your job, after all). Additionally, I think a lot of rigid neck armor should be treated as having Armor Gaps. That said, while Neck isn't the worst place to target for some stabby sentry removal, it certainly isn't the best.
A sentry might rather be alive and uncomfortable and in any case being a bit uncomfortable might keep him on his game. Besides being flogged for dozing is also uncomfortable.
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