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Old 09-09-2017, 08:44 AM   #21
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
I don't think that is how it works. While my books are in the old country, I think the sequence is:

Agent Attacks with his Rapier and Hits. Patent Parries with his Rapier using the Counterattack technique, and succeeds.

Now Patient gets his turn. If he chooses to attack agent, Agent will be at -2 to Parry due to the Counterattack. Patient does not get an extra attack, or to attack out of order ... GURPS simplifies combat into discrete turns because the alternative is not practical for mere humans.

Again, my books are in the old country, so anyone who wants to play this out should check Martial Arts.
Yep counter attack isn't an extra attack, it's an attack technique that you can use if you happen to have just successfully defended an attack from your intended target.

Fighter A and Fighter B

On A's first turn: A attacks, B defends

On B's first turn: B Attacks using counter attack, A defends at -2 or -1



You could do what Hal's suggesting with a Wait though I think.

as in declare a Wait: "after defending against X counter attack against X"


Fighter A and Fighter B again

on A's first turn: A declares Wait "after defending against B counter attack against B"

on B's first turn: B attacks A, A defends and A's Wait triggers so A counter attacks B (B will defend at -2 or -1)

on A's second turn: A attacks B, only B may now have already used an active defence which means they will have to use different defence or suffer a multiple defence penalty

on B's second turn: B doe what every B wants (so long as B is still in the fight).


It could go well if A is confident they can defend against B having given up the chance to attack first, and hit with the counter attack.
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Old 09-09-2017, 02:46 PM   #22
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by safisher View Post
Yes, of course I can. But when you said:

"issue of Pyramid with the designer's notes for GURPS Renaissance Florence have the writeups which stick closer to what a particular teacher or group of teachers taught in a specific place and time."

I took that to mean that I had missed the designer's notes on GURPS Renaissance Florence which included notes on period fencing, not a fictional fighting style.
Yes, it looks like I worded that poorly. Feel free to chose another illustrative example of a GURPS book with examples of styles taught at specific places and times, like the Martial Arts book for Yrth or GURPS Tactical Shooting.

Such designers notes may well exist, or I may have confused something by Matt Riggsby with a forum thread or blog post.

Also: here are some descriptions of hidden armour in the Medici arsenal around the time that the Pazzi tried to murder Lorenzo and Giuliano at Mass

And you can find James's thoughts from 1599 in the Basilikon Doron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James VI of Scotland
Let your selfe and all your Court weare no ordinarie armour with your cloathes, but such as is knightly and honourable; I meane rapier-swordes, and daggers: For tuilyesome weapons in the Court, betokens confusion in the countrey. And therefore bannish not onely from your Court, all traiterous offensiue weapons, forbidden by the Lawes, as guns and such like (whereof I spake alreadie) but also all traiterous defensiue armes, as secrets, platesleeues, and such like vnseene armour: For, besides that the wearers thereof, may be presupposed to haue a secret euill intention, they want both the vses that defensiue armour is ordained for; which is, to be able to holde out violence, and by their outward glaunsing in their enemies eyes, to strike a terrour in their hearts: Where by the contrary, they can serue for neither, being not onely vnable to resist, but dangerous for shots, and giuing no outward showe against the enemie; beeing onely ordained, for betraying vnder trust, whereof honest men should be ashamed to beare the outward badge, not resembling the thing they are not. And for answere against these arguments, I know none but the olde Scots fashion; which if it be wrong, is no more to be allowed for ancientnesse, then the olde Masse is, which also our forefathers vsed.
In other words, half the men at the Scots Court were wearing jacks of plates and secrets, but the King Did Not Approve. Apparently in his mother's time there had been innumerable fights with dirks in the hallways and courtyards.
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Old 09-09-2017, 04:09 PM   #23
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
]Yes, it looks like I worded that poorly.
No worries, I was hopeful that I hadn't missed it. As it was, it made me go back and look at his article on the Medici. It's all good.

I just returned in May from a semester teaching abroad in Florence. We lived in a 15th century villa for three months just outside the city. Visited a lot of Medici history in Florence, of course. I drove my little Fiat across Tuscany and beyond: Sienna, Lucca, Pisa, San Gimignano, etc. Spent several nights in Venice, trained to Rome, Naples, and then on to Sicily. As such, I was excited to read some more GURPS on Florence! Ciao!
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Old 09-09-2017, 08:02 PM   #24
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
[snip]
Just my thoughts... ;)
The dual action technique is definitely interesting and something to think about, but probably too advanced of a house rule for me to pitch to the GM before this particular campaign I'm preparing for ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Nah, all kinds of sources from 14th, 15th, and 16th century Christendom describe men wearing hidden or partial armour (usually collars, headpieces, body armour, armoured sleeves). In Trecento Florence there was a fad for wearing a collar of mail around town, and one of the Scottish kings tried to forbid men at court from wearing concealed armour. I think that one of the Medici survived an assassination attempt at church because the knifeman tried to pat him down for hidden armour and he realized that something was wrong.

There was a fad in the 16th and 17th century for duelling in your shirt, but not everyone participates in a fad. So in the USA today there are people who love their black 'tactical gear' and people who like oiled hardwood and leather and carbon steels ... the second group is not as trendy, but they still exist.
Definitely noted, I'll take armor into consideration then!

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Taking a thrust impaling hit to a limb for 1 in order to deliver a hit to vitals for 3 probably qualifies.
True! It'd be nice if there was some way I could choose what parts I exposed with something like a riposte, like a larger part of the random hit location table became left arm or something. Then again an unlucky damage roll could cripple my arm forever, but on the other hand that's probably realistic.
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:07 PM   #25
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by DeathDaisy View Post
True! It'd be nice if there was some way I could choose what parts I exposed with something like a riposte, like a larger part of the random hit location table became left arm or something. Then again an unlucky damage roll could cripple my arm forever, but on the other hand that's probably realistic.
You could check out the Focused Defense option in GURPS Martial Arts: Gladiators

It does something of what you want...though it isn't that great for two weapon fighters.
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:49 PM   #26
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by DeathDaisy View Post
True! It'd be nice if there was some way I could choose what parts I exposed with something like a riposte, like a larger part of the random hit location table became left arm or something. Then again an unlucky damage roll could cripple my arm forever, but on the other hand that's probably realistic.
Well, don't forget that by the time you're declaring your Riposte, you probably do know what target your enemy is hitting. Riposte is declared as part of your defense, which by definition happens after your foe has successfully attacked (and thus, taken any hit location penalties, or rolled on the random table). If they didn't successfully hit, after all, there'd be no need for defense! So you can say "Ok, she's aiming at my arm, that means relatively low damage potential if she hits, I can afford to risk taking -4 on Riposte".
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:15 AM   #27
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

You can also say, for example, "I have DR 6, I am not going to bother Blocking the Defensive Attack from the scrawny guy when I might have to save it for the ogre with the club." But in real life and in GURPS, the effects of wounds are very unpredictable.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:19 AM   #28
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by DeathDaisy View Post
Definitely noted, I'll take armor into consideration then!
You're welcome. Pyramid #3-52 has worked examples of concealed armour.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:23 AM   #29
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by safisher View Post
No worries, I was hopeful that I hadn't missed it. As it was, it made me go back and look at his article on the Medici. It's all good.

I just returned in May from a semester teaching abroad in Florence. We lived in a 15th century villa for three months just outside the city. Visited a lot of Medici history in Florence, of course. I drove my little Fiat across Tuscany and beyond: Sienna, Lucca, Pisa, San Gimignano, etc. Spent several nights in Venice, trained to Rome, Naples, and then on to Sicily. As such, I was excited to read some more GURPS on Florence! Ciao!
Ok, sorry I got your hopes up! Its hard, because on one hand I don't want to spend a lot of concentration checking facts for a forum post, but on the other hand I want to take time to read things and reply thoughtfully, unlike on some other social media. I don't know if I always strike the right balance.

Glad you got to live in Italy for a while!
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Old 09-11-2017, 05:11 AM   #30
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Well, don't forget that by the time you're declaring your Riposte, you probably do know what target your enemy is hitting. Riposte is declared as part of your defense, which by definition happens after your foe has successfully attacked (and thus, taken any hit location penalties, or rolled on the random table). If they didn't successfully hit, after all, there'd be no need for defense! So you can say "Ok, she's aiming at my arm, that means relatively low damage potential if she hits, I can afford to risk taking -4 on Riposte".
We've always rolled hit location after the defense in my group, but I suppose it makes sense the other way around, and would help a great deal with risk assessment ^^ Do people usually roll hit location first?
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