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Old 09-05-2017, 02:50 PM   #1
Hellboy
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Default Incentive for using hands to stop torso grapples for combat trained

With Martial Arts allowing combat skills to provide a hands-free parry to avoid someone grabbing your torso, it doesn't seem like there is any benefit to trying to use a hand to deflect the grab.

For someone with a point in Brawling, it seems like they would always be twisting.

There might be some benefit if the -4 cumulative is tallied separately. Like...

1) grab A stopped at DX (torso parry)

2) grab B stopped at DX (hand parry)

But against a single attack, it might be interesting if you got a benefit for using up both your parries.

Maybe like the +2 you get for a cross parry except instead of losing 2 hand parries you lose hand parry and torso parry and retain hand parrying for whatever you didn't use?

Or if that is too extreme maybe just the +1 which supported parry provides?
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Old 09-06-2017, 04:57 AM   #2
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Default Re: Incentive for using hands to stop torso grapples for combat trained

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
With Martial Arts allowing combat skills to provide a hands-free parry to avoid someone grabbing your torso, it doesn't seem like there is any benefit to trying to use a hand to deflect the grab.

For someone with a point in Brawling, it seems like they would always be twisting.

There might be some benefit if the -4 cumulative is tallied separately. Like...

1) grab A stopped at DX (torso parry)

2) grab B stopped at DX (hand parry)

But against a single attack, it might be interesting if you got a benefit for using up both your parries.

Maybe like the +2 you get for a cross parry except instead of losing 2 hand parries you lose hand parry and torso parry and retain hand parrying for whatever you didn't use?

Or if that is too extreme maybe just the +1 which supported parry provides?
I think the main advantage to using a hands free parry is that you can do so while using both hands to do something else that prevents parrying (usually grapple back).

The downside is hand free parries only work against grapples, and if you use TG it counts as a 'Whole-body action" and so may have more CP inflicted penalties than one done by a free hand


However judging by the 'Number of Parries' rules I think you do tally the cumulative penalties separately don't you?

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-06-2017 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 09-06-2017, 11:21 AM   #3
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Default Re: Incentive for using hands to stop torso grapples for combat trained

TG22 mentions something about it counting as a two hands parry so it might not be tracked separately...

Actually that may answer it: its better if you parry using one hand because that is a -4 for just that hand's next parry whereas a hand-free anti-grapple parry is a -4 for either hand on its next parry.

I guess another issue as to which is better is if you are already being grappled and how much CP there is on torso vs arms.

Although I wonder if you can do arm parries when your hand is grappled or hand parries when your arm is grappled so that you only suffer referred control for half CP?

Wondering same for leg parries when foot is grappled vs foot parries when leg is grappled.

If an extremity is grappled for 8 CP (-4 to DX/skill is -2 to parry) then referred control should make the limb -1 to parry...and vice versa?

Same might also apply in throwing elbows if your hand is grappled, throwing knees if your foot is grappled... ?
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:16 AM   #4
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Default Re: Incentive for using hands to stop torso grapples for combat trained

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TG22 mentions something about it counting as a two hands parry so it might not be tracked separately...
Actually yeah your right, as it specifically says that's an area it matters in. So yeah it will count against cumulative parry penalties*. So the advantage vs. hand based parries is you can do it while doing stuff with your hands that preclude using them to parry. But the disadvantage is you can only do it against grapples.

EDIT: so to answer the actual point about what's better, hands free or hand parry. Or needing to re-balance them. It comes down to what else is going on.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-07-2017 at 04:02 AM.
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Old 09-07-2017, 04:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: Incentive for using hands to stop torso grapples for combat trained

The other disadvantage is counting as a parry for both hands like sumo or wrestling. An inferior option if you can do one hand parries with brawl/box/judo/karat

TG mentioned all out defense double an option rule to let sumo /'wrest parries only have a -2 on 2nd instead of -4.

Seem to recall 2H staff parries having a similar rules suggestion somewhere.

Something attractive to extrapolate to all 2H parries as house rule IMO, including torso which function as them.

Would also give the +2 cross parry bonus and remove the max 1 parry per second restriction.

All this makes it greater than the sum of its parts, which is fine to me, because I think it would really work like that.

The downside to the strategy is if you use the gladiator rules to get +1 to parry with lead hand at cost of your other hand parrying.

Giving 2H parries the +2 cross when head on helps to balance that.
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Old 09-08-2017, 01:23 AM   #6
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Default Re: Incentive for using hands to stop torso grapples for combat trained

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
...

Seem to recall 2H staff parries having a similar rules suggestion somewhere.

Something attractive to extrapolate to all 2H parries as house rule IMO, including torso which function as them..
No the 2 handed weapon parry bonus is in reference to the fact that such weapons are good for parrying multiple attacks quickly because you have this great long parrying surface that you can quickly move and put where you need it, by dint of some two handed grips. The mere fact that it involves two hands (and that a torso parry in some aspects counts as 'two handed' in reference to GURPS rules) is not the salient point. Hence the text:

"If the GM decides that such claims are true in his campaign,
he might allow any ready Polearm, Spear, Staff, or
Two-Handed Sword weapon that’s at least two yards long
and wielded in two hands to use the following rules:" MA pg123



In my honest opinion you don't need to expand the bonuses of hands free parry here, it shines in specific contexts. I.e you can parry a grapple attack while doing something else with your hands. Now that might not be a benefit that can be quantified in terms of a numerical bonuses, but in some situations the mere ability to do so is a bonus.

However that is only my opinion, if you like the idea go for it!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-08-2017 at 04:19 AM.
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