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Old 09-07-2017, 06:13 PM   #1
DeathDaisy
 
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Default [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

The description for the Italian school of fencing (MA156) says two things about defense using this style: stylists make extensive use of the riposte and stylists rarely parry with the main weapon but use an off-hand weapon or dodge. Having read Agrippa and working through Capo Ferro (solely for use in roleplaying :P) this makes sense, you avoid the opponents blade and attack into their attack and make them impale themselves on your blade, as Agrippa says on every other page. He explicitly, repeatedly says to avoid parrying with your main blade.

However, the Riposte (MA124-125) requires you to attack with the weapon you defended with to gain the penalty to your opponents defense. So the style suggests things that are clearly incompatible. The riposte works as described for how swashbuckling often looks in the movies, but it doesnt fit with fencing as described in the fencing manuals, nor with how it's described in Martial Arts. It feels like they tried to describe both the historical style and the swashbuckling movie style at the same time.

So my question I guess is how do I make the style so that it penalizes the opponents defense without using my main blade to parry? Just a dodge and deceptive attack? A feint of some kind? I don't mind it being cinematic and jumping around like a true swashbuckler, but I'd like it to keep at least fairly true to the core philosophies of the historical style.

Thoughts?

Last edited by DeathDaisy; 09-07-2017 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 09-07-2017, 06:36 PM   #2
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

You're right, based on the description of the techniques, and the way Riposte works, there is an inconsistency here. I have no knowledge of fencing in the real world, so I can't say whether the description is actually accurate, but assuming it is, what I'd suggest doing is adding a new perk to the Italian School style, Special Setup (Ripost from main weapon after parry with off-hand). Basically, it does what it says - allows you to use a Riposte with your main weapon, with the appropriate bonuses, after taking the relevant penalties to your off-hand weapon parry.
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Old 09-07-2017, 07:06 PM   #3
DeathDaisy
 
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
You're right, based on the description of the techniques, and the way Riposte works, there is an inconsistency here. I have no knowledge of fencing in the real world, so I can't say whether the description is actually accurate, but assuming it is, what I'd suggest doing is adding a new perk to the Italian School style, Special Setup (Ripost from main weapon after parry with off-hand). Basically, it does what it says - allows you to use a Riposte with your main weapon, with the appropriate bonuses, after taking the relevant penalties to your off-hand weapon parry.
That's such an elegant solution! Thanks! :) Is dodge riposte too much? I'm thinking maybe a counterattack is close enough for use after dodging ^^
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Old 09-08-2017, 01:10 AM   #4
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

The Italian School write up has the Counter-attack (Rapier) technique in it. Which by RAW is the closest to parry with the off hand and then take advantage by striking with your rapier into the target's out of line rapier.

Ultimately though while by RAW riposte and counter attack are distinct things (and one an attack option, one a technique) in reality this stuff is all on a continuum.

I think a Italian school specific 1 pt perk "riposte off a different weapon" sounds fine.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-08-2017 at 03:40 AM.
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Old 09-08-2017, 10:13 AM   #5
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
You're right, based on the description of the techniques, and the way Riposte works, there is an inconsistency here. I have no knowledge of fencing in the real world, so I can't say whether the description is actually accurate, but assuming it is, what I'd suggest doing is adding a new perk to the Italian School style, Special Setup (Ripost from main weapon after parry with off-hand). Basically, it does what it says - allows you to use a Riposte with your main weapon, with the appropriate bonuses, after taking the relevant penalties to your off-hand weapon parry.
The problem is that no one does it in earnest any more except German students who only use tip cuts and aim for the cheek, limiting the nature. Oh once in a while you will have an eccentric pair of people do a real duel with real traditional weapons over a real quarrel to this day. However, though that is weirdly charming it doesn't happen often enough to be educational.

HEMA clubs can tell a lot. They have the disadvantage that no one is trying to kill or seriously injure or risking same and therefore the assumptions change. Many people for instance would make a move in a fight club that they would not when there was a definite prospect of ending up as a kebab.
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Last edited by jason taylor; 09-08-2017 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 09-08-2017, 10:55 AM   #6
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by DeathDaisy View Post
That's such an elegant solution! Thanks! :) Is dodge riposte too much? I'm thinking maybe a counterattack is close enough for use after dodging ^^
I don't see how a similar "Special Setup (Riposte after Dodge)" perk would be unbalanced either, since it still involves penalizing your Dodge roll, and Dodge is more expensive to buy up to high levels than Parry anyway. I wouldn't allow one Special Setup perk to get a Riposte opportunity on both off-hand parries and Dodges, though. To do both, you'd need two perks.
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Old 09-08-2017, 11:03 AM   #7
sir_pudding
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

Buy up Counter-attack and not Riposte. Neither technique is especially useful without any points in.
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Old 09-08-2017, 12:42 PM   #8
Kalzazz
 
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

Can you buy up Riposte?
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Old 09-08-2017, 02:20 PM   #9
DeathDaisy
 
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
The Italian School write up has the Counter-attack (Rapier) technique in it. Which by RAW is the closest to parry with the off hand and then take advantage by striking with your rapier into the target's out of line rapier.

Ultimately though while by RAW riposte and counter attack are distinct things (and one an attack option, one a technique) in reality this stuff is all on a continuum.
Yeah, I'll definitely use counterattack too. More, if I can :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I don't see how a similar "Special Setup (Riposte after Dodge)" perk would be unbalanced either, since it still involves penalizing your Dodge roll, and Dodge is more expensive to buy up to high levels than Parry anyway. I wouldn't allow one Special Setup perk to get a Riposte opportunity on both off-hand parries and Dodges, though. To do both, you'd need two perks.
Fair point, probably gonna invest in both then, if the GM agrees ^^

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Buy up Counter-attack and not Riposte. Neither technique is especially useful without any points in.
Counterattack is basically a worse deceptive attack without points in it, so yeah. But Riposte is a maneuver, not a technique, so no buying up that sadly.

I'd much rather not give up any defense because that spells doom in gurps, but otoh a character trained in that kind of style would probably risk it, so I feel I'll have to bite the sour apple for roleplaying's sake. An excerpt from Agrippa again: "Though I had not originally intended to mention it, let me note here that one often places oneself at risk of being hit by insignificant blows in order to emerge the victor and kill the other combatant"

In gurps there are sadly no insignificant hits. A hit is a hit.
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Old 09-08-2017, 02:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: [MA] Italian fencing description and the riposte

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Originally Posted by DeathDaisy View Post
Counterattack is basically a worse deceptive attack without points in it, so yeah. But Riposte is a maneuver, not a technique, so no buying up that sadly.
Styles don't affect your maneuver choices, just what techniques you are allowed to improve and style perks, so I am a little confused about the discrepancy here.

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In gurps there are sadly no insignificant hits. A hit is a hit.
Sure there are. Hits that do less damage than DR.
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