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Old 09-04-2017, 06:36 AM   #21
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Default Re: Battletech/Mechwarrior mechs in GURPS

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Originally Posted by borithan View Post
RoF could be explained away as each shot representing the effects of a volley of fire rather than individual shots (which is quite clearly the case with the Machine Guns), but yeah, the ranges...

Though as I understand it some of the older fiction has used the table top ranges as the basis of events in-universe.
This is the same kind of logic that gives Star Wars blasters a range of 30-35 meters in the fiction....

My own take: since we know the tonnage and speeds of the mechs, calculate ST/HP, LWt, and Move off that, give them appropriate Hnd/SR scores for the feel you're going for, base the weapons on their closest GURPS equivalents, and DR able to withstand what they're intended to face off against. Done. :)
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Old 09-04-2017, 02:38 PM   #22
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Default Re: Battletech/Mechwarrior mechs in GURPS

There are of course other absurdities in Battletech. Such as trying to fit 400 or more six inch diameter and yard long missiles into mech body parts that are considerably smaller than the space that would take.
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Old 09-04-2017, 08:40 PM   #23
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Default Re: Battletech/Mechwarrior mechs in GURPS

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Originally Posted by borithan View Post
Though as I understand it some of the older fiction has used the table top ranges as the basis of events in-universe.
Back when they started in the 80's the story was that the constant war had knocked technical know-how so far back that they couldn't reproduce targeting systems or missile guidance sensors that could hit anything further away. The original boxed set (second editon of Battledroids renamed Battletech) claimed new mechs and ftl ships couldn't even be built anymore. Then they gave aerospace fighters significantly longer ranges with a BS explanation that the more rapid cooling of heat sinks while flying allowed the energy weapons to fire in overcharge mode and quietly ignored that that didn't explain projectiles or missiles or the incredibly longer ranges in space. And they started including new mech types that were supposedly fresh out of the factories that they previously said didn't exist.
Of course when they did a Star League Era mech book and the clans they didn't raise the weapon ranges significantly and stopped trying to explain the ranges at all.

Last edited by rkbrown419; 09-04-2017 at 08:41 PM. Reason: corecting typo
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Old 09-07-2017, 12:45 AM   #24
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Default Re: Battletech/Mechwarrior mechs in GURPS

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I know a few folks are fond of running mech fights in their native system and the rest of the game in gurps.
I for sure do not want to use the original system
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Old 09-07-2017, 12:58 PM   #25
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Default Re: Battletech/Mechwarrior mechs in GURPS

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I for sure do not want to use the original system
Then it really depends. Are you looking for the flavor of BattleTech, or just using the 'Mech names?

If you're just using 'Mech names, just build them out of Spaceships and be done with it. If you want the flavor . . . well, that's going to be a massive investment of time on your part. Most of us who have used GURPS to run a BattleTech game have done so by using the original system to keep from having to re-invent the wheel. The BattleTech system works and that's where most of the flavor comes from.

First, You'll want to pick a scale (I always recommend C-scale for 'Mechs, it makes them, generally, superior to tanks and the numbers don't get too high) and build out all of the weapons.

Then, you'll have to decide on how you want to do 'Mech armor. Is it by location, like in BattleTech or is it by facing, like GURPS? Probably the latter, since you don't want to use BattleTech. Also, you'll have to determine if you want the armor to be ablative, semi-ablative or normal. All have advantages and weaknesses. How much and in what location will all have to be determined and tweaked. Extensive play-testing will be a must.

Additionally, you'll have to invent, whole-cloth a mechanic for heat. That's something GURPS has never used. I've tried a few times and never had any decent success. This was the most recent attempt I made (link to local Denver GURPS Board), but didn't get to far.

Based out of GURPS 'Mechs will be incredibly fragile: The old hammer and eggshell problem. So, you'll have to come up with a way to mitigate that. A 100-ton Atlas would have 234 HP (a T-72 has 176 HP), if you calculated from its total weight. But GURPS says from empty weight, which is going to be problematic to generate for every 'Mech.

So, the AS7-D Atlas, from 3025, carries 36 tons of weapons. Utilizing that, the "empty weight" would be 64 tons, meaning it would only have 202 HP.

Since 'Mechs are built with a target weight in mind, and aren't built to carry a payload (unless you're dealing with OmniMechs), it seems logical to use their final weight. For Omnis, I'd actually suggest using their empty weight as that seems to be a nice weakness for them to have to deal with.

Strengths generated from the HP value would inflict anemic melee damage compared to the BattleTech counterparts. The Atlas would only inflict 24d in a punch or kick, which at C-Scale would be, 1d-3. That's not a punch, it's a gentle caress. An average kick wouldn't penetrate the side armor of a T-72, nor move it. At best, the kick would be able to inflict 1 point of cDamage through the side armor (and inflict a major wound). While realistic, this isn't a BattleTech result.

Using BattleTech numbers, the Atlas would kick for a massive 20 points of cDamage, blowing through the T-72's impressive frontal cDR of 12, and reducing its 2 cHP to -6 cHP (-3x HP), likely destroying it.
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:18 PM   #26
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Default Re: Battletech/Mechwarrior mechs in GURPS

I'm not super-familiar with the Battletech setting, so I can't help with direct conversions. However, for a system to do those conversions, you might want to check out the system in the article "Modular Mecha", in Pyramid #3/51, Tech and Toys III. It's designed specifically for mechs, so it's got a bit finer granularity than using the Spaceships setting. Comparing the 'Mech classes on the wiki I found, it looks the three categories of mechs in the article, Light, Medium, and Heavy, correspond reasonably well to the Battlemech categories of the same names. You'll have to come up with extrapolations for Assault and Superheavy 'mechs, but that shouldn't be too difficult, I'd think.
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Old 09-07-2017, 08:26 PM   #27
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Default Re: Battletech/Mechwarrior mechs in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I'm not super-familiar with the Battletech setting, so I can't help with direct conversions. However, for a system to do those conversions, you might want to check out the system in the article "Modular Mecha", in Pyramid #3/51, Tech and Toys III..
ModularMecha would get you closer to the "non-transformable battloids" of the Macross setting than it would to Battletech and its' core Mechs which just borrowed Macross artwork.
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Old 09-07-2017, 09:55 PM   #28
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Default Re: Battletech/Mechwarrior mechs in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
Then it really depends. Are you looking for the flavor of BattleTech, or just using the 'Mech names?

If you're just using 'Mech names, just build them out of Spaceships and be done with it. If you want the flavor . . . well, that's going to be a massive investment of time on your part.
So I math-hammered some possible numbers last weekend for a GURPS-ish kind of Battletech. I'll share it here if anyone is interested.

First off, TRO 3025 and mostly the original 14 only, because I used to build the old Revelon models and they're the only ones I care about. (If you want to do clan stuff, you can extrapolate). Which simplifies things a bit, because the original 14 don't have ACs other than AC/5s, and you don't have to deal with Battletech's weird AC damage versus range rules.

Second: if you run the numbers, a Large Laser is just about the same weight as a Spaceships SM+5 Major Battery, or a 30 MJ weapon, and Medium Lasers and Small Lasers and PPCs actually fall pretty nicely on other side as 10 MJ, 3 MJ, and 100 MJ weapons. A Battletech Machine Gun looks like it fires roughly the same amount of metal as a M2 Browning HMG. SRMs look kind of like modern 127mm anti-missiles, and LRMs like 84mm LAWs (though obviously the ranges are wrong).

Converting all of that to d-scale:
Machine : 1d+2 pi++, Acc 5, Rng 1800/7600, RoF 8.
Small Laser: 3d bu, Acc 10, Rng 3200/9600, RoF 1.
Medium Laser: 5d bu, Acc 10, Rng 4800/144000, RoF 1.
Large Laser: 8d bu, Acc 10, Rng 7200/216000, RoF 1.
PPC: 9d+2 bu, Acc 10, Rng 108000/324000, RoF 1.
AC/5: 4d pi++, Acc 6, Rng 4000/8000, RoF 6. (40mm?)
LRM: 3d+2 cr ex, Acc 4, Rng 12000, RoF 5,10,15,20.
SRM: 7d+1 cr ex, Acc 2, Rng 5000, RoF 2,4,6.

If you give each 'mech front dDR equal to half the total of its Battletech torso DR, then most light mechs can mostly resist Small Lasers but not Medium Lasers, medium mechs can mostly resist Medium Lasers but not Large lasers, heavy mechs take some damage from PPCs, and the Battlemaster doesn't care what you hit it with. I'd probably give arms and legs 2/3rds (or so) the DR of the torso, so you can cripple things if your mech's weapons won't damage it directly, and the back 1/3rd, so light mechs can usefully flank and shoot people. I'm assuming non-ablative DR here for simplicity.

Mech dHP is 4*cube root(2*mass in tons), so 14 for the 20 tonners up to 22 for the assault mechs. Move in yds/s is ~2*BT base move, and all 'mechs have Enhanced Move 1/2. I'd give light mech's Hnd/SR of +2/4, and reduce Hnd by one per weight class.

Doing all this is going to change the feel of the game: you'll see more symmetrical matchups, with light mechs only capable of damaging other light mechs and so on. It'll be something like naval battles before the invention of the torpedo. I don't know if that's the feel that you want, but hey, here are some numbers. Play around with them, see what you like.

I don't attempt to address the question of heat or weird ranges because I'm not sure either of those ever made a lot of sense. If it offends you that a Rifleman can actually use all its guns at once then you'll have to find a solution that makes sense.
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Old 09-07-2017, 11:19 PM   #29
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Default Re: Battletech/Mechwarrior mechs in GURPS

D-scale is not good for 'Mechs. At least, not if you're going to talk canon 'Mechs. 'Mechs are more than a match for any 20th Century tank. But, not according to your numbers.

A TL7 tank gun will ruin a 'Mech's day with a single shot, and no 'Mech could survive two hits. APFSDS rounds would do 6dx3(2) (18d (2)) pi++ dDam. That would give an AS7-D Atlas a dDR 58 to the Center Torso, which would be reduced to 29, making the shot survivable, but barely. The 63 average dDam from the tank gun would take the Atlas to -12 HP, and it wouldn't survive another hit. Anything shy of that is going to be at -HP or lower.

A single hit from a PPC can not damage an Atlas. With a maximum d-damage of 56 vs the dDR of 58 . . ..

Also, keep in mind that the Atlas would only be doing 2d damage with a punch or kick.
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Old 09-07-2017, 11:37 PM   #30
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Default Re: Battletech/Mechwarrior mechs in GURPS

Shouldn't that be 2d+2 for punches and 2d+4 for kicks with the bonus from a hard striking surface?
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