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Old 06-20-2017, 07:14 PM   #21
Rasputin
 
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Default Re: [DF] Turning bodies to loot

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Originally Posted by chandley View Post
As a follow up, DF 16, p.44 has "Naturally Occurring Loot" that does in fact give a $ value, though it is really meant for trapping natural animals in the wilderness, not skinning slorns or rust monsters. In any event, perhaps you can use it to spur your imagination on this.
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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
LTC3 also has detailed rules this.
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Originally Posted by chandley View Post
You are right, I forgot about LTC3 (not 2). The rules start on p.4 and go into significant detail. So you have roll and shout (DF 2 or DF 16), mildly streamlined (After the End 2), and detailed (LTC3).
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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
Have you looked at DF8: Treasure Tables? Common furs are worth $200 per 75 lbs., while exotic furs are worth $500, 75 lbs., etc. (p. 12).
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
DF8, p 13, has the rules for determining how much delvers get and how much it's worth when harvesting bits from slorns and rust monsters. That bases things off the dice of damage the creature's most powerful attack does, but for creatures without a particularly high-damage attack - like a rust monster - you might have to estimate. Basing things off of Combat Effectiveness Rating (It's a Threat!, Pyramid #3/77) may actually be more appropriate, as a foe with good defense may be just as valuable as one with good offense (and one with both may be more valuable). I seem to recall there being some CER-to-loot conversion ratios, but I can't find them with a quick search.
Now these are helpful comments, and exactly for what I was looking! Especially page 13 of DF8. I'll remember that the next time the party fox-man ranger insists on using every part of the animal he killed for food.

As for rations, well, I had better lose weight before my family finds out how tasty I am! (Luckily, I'm by far the smallest person in my gaming group, so they won't kill me and eat me.) If I assume you get 1 meal for every 4 pounds of weight (remember, DF uses 2 lbs. for a meal of rations), I get ST cubed, divided by 32. Still a little wonky to work out at the table.
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Old 06-21-2017, 01:10 AM   #22
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Default Re: [DF] Turning bodies to loot

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Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
(remember, DF uses 2 lbs. for a meal of rations)
It's your game, so you can run things however you'd like, but do note that the 2 lb rations are likely meant to represent a meal of jerky, cheese, and bread (probably in the form of an entirely-too-hard and possibly-moldy biscuit). It leaves room for alternative foodstuffs, such as Dwarven Rations (cram?) which weigh 1 lb per meal, or Elven Rations (lembas?), which only weigh around 0.167 lb per meal, so having fresh meat be 1 lb per meal would hardly be breaking from DF rules.

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Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
I get ST cubed, divided by 32. Still a little wonky to work out at the table.
Divide ST by 3, then cube it. That'll be faster and will give you close to the same result.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:28 AM   #23
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Default Re: [DF] Turning bodies to loot

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
LTC3 has 1 lb of meat per meal, and also up to 70% (depending on how well the butcher rolls) of an animal's weight being harvestable as food.
I'd always heard that about 40% of an animal is muscle. But that 70% sounds very reasonable when accounting for all the other parts (which Bruno did a fine job of dissecting in detail).

Hmm, I think as a rough rule of thumb for food-on-the-hoof, maybe this would work:

Prime cuts: 40% of weight. Edible, popular stuff (mostly large cuts of meat). Sells for good prices. A hunter will generally harvest all of this.

Secondary cuts: 20% of weight. Edible but less popular stuff (tripe, heart, etc.). Sells for less; picky hunters and affluent diners may pass up this stuff.

Marginal cuts: 10% of weight. Edible but typically rejected stuff (brains, blood, etc.). Little value to anyone other than the very hungry...

That adds up to a neat 70%. The remaining 30% would be bones (sans marrow), hooves, hide, etc.; generally worthless as food, outside of very extreme conditions. Even then, serious Cooking rolls may be needed to approach edibility and eke out meager nutrition...

(Note: Those example parts in parentheses may vary a lot with the eater. Some races, societies, or individual gourmets will love their kidney pie, fried brains, and blood sausage...)
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Old 06-21-2017, 06:25 AM   #24
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Default Re: [DF] Turning bodies to loot

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Marginal cuts: 10% of weight. Edible but typically rejected stuff (brains, blood, etc.). Little value to anyone other than the very hungry...
Just a quick note, but I buy blood sausage every week from my mass-market grocery store. It's certainly less common in English-speaking areas of North America... which is bizarre because it's quite common in England (usually called "black pudding" and a stereotypical part of a Full English Breakfast).

Blood sausages are a pretty universal cuisine element, but blood gets used further: it's frequently used to thicken soups, and when you get into Asia you find "blood cake" which isn't much like cake, you put in dishes instead of meats. Finland makes rather more literal blood cakes, a sort of brownie except with blood instead of chocolate.

I can see blood being put into the secondary category; it's only typically rejected in English-speaking North America.

Many of the things in the secondary and marginal cuts categories are going to be highly variable between cultures.
And of course cultures that are still close historically to food deprivation (or are still dealing with it) are going to be rather less picky.
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Old 06-21-2017, 09:27 AM   #25
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I can see blood being put into the secondary category; it's only typically rejected in English-speaking North America.
And Israel, probably, as well as Muslim nations. Both Kosher and Halal dietary rules, as I understand them, forbid consumption of blood. "For the blood is the life," and all that.

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Many of the things in the secondary and marginal cuts categories are going to be highly variable between cultures.
Quite so. I understand "Rocky Mountain Oysters" are actually fairly high quality as foodstuffs, but many Americans - myself included - can't really get over the fact that they're, you know, cow testicles, and are thus not willing to try them.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:10 AM   #26
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Default Re: [DF] Turning bodies to loot

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And Israel, probably, as well as Muslim nations. Both Kosher and Halal dietary rules, as I understand them, forbid consumption of blood. "For the blood is the life," and all that.
I'm pretty sure it's not an issue for Halal, But I know that blood is not kosher. In Israel & with religious Jews in general, you won't see Blood Pudding, ect...
During the butchering processes as much blood as possible must be drained from the meat and after the meat is salted to leach even more blood from it.

I have to add that in a survival situation, you are allowed as a religious Jew to do/eat whatever is available to survive. So if you are lost in the woods or survive a plane crash & can hunt, if you catch an animal even if it's not a kosher animal, you can eat it & you don't have to worry about the blood ect...

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Old 06-21-2017, 10:23 AM   #27
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I'm pretty sure it's not an issue for Halal, But I know that blood is not kosher. In Israel & with religious Jews in general, you won't see Blood Pudding, ect...
During the butchering processes as much blood as possible must be drained from the meat and after the meat is salted to leach even more blood from it.
I decided to go ahead and check, and according to the English translation of the Quran I have on my phone, blood is indeed forbidden to Muslims - Chapter 5, Verse 3. I had originally based my assumption on a quick Google search, as well as the observation that there's a great deal of overlap between Kosher (which I'm more familiar with) and Halal, which is always risky.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:28 AM   #28
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Default Re: [DF] Turning bodies to loot

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I decided to go ahead and check, and according to the English translation of the Quran I have on my phone, blood is indeed forbidden to Muslims - Chapter 5, Verse 3. I had originally based my assumption on a quick Google search, as well as the observation that there's a great deal of overlap between Kosher (which I'm more familiar with) and Halal, which is always risky.
Aside from cutting the animal's throat (& the exact requirements are very different) and not eating pork, what do you see as the "great deal of overlap" between Kosher & Halal? (I don't see it.)
I know that Kosher slaughtered food can be Halal, but Halal slaughtered food is not Kosher.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:45 AM   #29
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Default Re: [DF] Turning bodies to loot

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I know that Kosher slaughtered food can be Halal, but Halal slaughtered food is not Kosher.
There you go right there. The rules for Halal food are (basically) a subset of the rules for Kosher food; the rules for Kosher food have extra restrictions not applied to Halal, I think most dramatically the rules about dairy products[1] but there are other details. When one is 100% a subset of the other, that's a lot of similarity.

[1] You're not allowed to mix dairy products and meat - an extension from the prohibition against cooking a calf in its mother's milk. Under the more strict guidelines you can't even risk proximity contamination by eating two contrasting meals with the same utensils; thus you'll find households keeping kosher have two sets of cutlery - typically one with white handles and one with blue handles. You also need two sets of cooking vessels and so forth. There's an accepted amount of heat and washing to "sterilize" implements from this "contamination" but it's considered prudent to just avoid the possibility.

This is why cheese is such a big problem - traditionally cheese needs rennet, an enzyme extracted from a calfs stomach. Today there's either vegetable sources (thistles!) or industrially produced sources (not 100% sure if microbe produced rennet enzymes are considered meat or not), but many cheese manufacturers just use whatever is cheapest when they go to restock, so they can't guarentee one or the other.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:22 PM   #30
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Default Re: [DF] Turning bodies to loot

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There you go right there. The rules for Halal food are (basically) a subset of the rules for Kosher food; the rules for Kosher food have extra restrictions not applied to Halal, I think most dramatically the rules about dairy products[1] but there are other details. When one is 100% a subset of the other, that's a lot of similarity.
Bruno, I think you misunderstand me.
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When one is 100% a subset of the other, that's a lot of similarity.
That's true, but Halal is not a 100% subset of Kashrut. It has 1 law in common. The prohibition on Pig products (though for very different reasons), and a vague similarity in the specifics of the slaughter.
Hardly a 100% subset only 2 data points.
Like saying the Union Jack & The US flag look alike 'Cause they share the same colors, One's red, white & blue and is all stripes. The other's red white & blue and has stars & stripes, One is a 100% subset of the other?

I grew up an Orthodox Jew, so I know the laws of Kashrut.
My understanding of Halal slaughter is:
1) Beast's throat must be cut (no laws on how) &
2) Allahu Akbar must be said as it's done.
That's about all it takes.

Sharing, a throat must be cut (but the methodology is not the same) and, One animal forbidden by Islam in common is not "a lot" of similarity.

Quote:
[1] You're not allowed to mix dairy products and meat - an extension from the prohibition against cooking a calf in its mother's milk. Under the more strict guidelines you can't even risk proximity contamination by eating two contrasting meals with the same utensils;
That's not it. Because the materials are porous "dairy particles" infuse the utensils. (Note that glass is exempt from this, as it's not porous.) That's why they have two sets of cooking pots ect, as well as dishes & cutlery.

Quote:
There's an accepted amount of heat and washing to "sterilize" implements from this "contamination" but it's considered prudent to just avoid the possibility.
Partly that, but that much heat may well destroy certain utensils & as it's necessary to "re-sterilize" for each meat/dairy meal change it would become a massive pin in the A**! Much easier to have two sets of dishes.

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I think most dramatically the rules about dairy products
I think the amount & types of animals forbidden to be eaten by Kashrut & all the laws on how it's allowed to be prepared is about equally dramatic.
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