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Old 06-13-2017, 02:08 AM   #1
FuelDrop
 
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Default What happens at Attribute 0

Just having issues finding the rules for this, but one of my players has picked up Leech (ST), so I want to know if there's anything significant that happens when ST hits 0.
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Old 06-13-2017, 02:16 AM   #2
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Default Re: What happens at Attribute 0

per Kromm :

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
ST 0 means you have Basic Lift 0 and can pick up nothing. If you have any encumbrance at all, even a gum wrapper, you collapse under its weight. You also have 0 damage, and can't even shove a door open or push aside a cobweb. However, you can walk and act, as long as your walking and acting doesn't involve doing anything other than moving your own body weight from A to B. Thus, air and fire elementals (p. B262) can have ST 0 without being immobilized, but can also be kept out by any barrier they can't penetrate by seeping around or burning.
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Lowering ST itself doesn't lower HP; see Temporary Attribute Penalties (p. B421). If somebody has ST 100 and HP 100, and you drop her ST to 0, she still has HP 100 and full structural itegrity, and can still move the mass represented by that HP 100. To afflict somebody with the inability to move her own body, tack on the Paralysis enhancement. That will do the job all on its own . . . but if it's important, add a ST penalty, too. If you want it to be really dire -- with crushed lungs, burst heart, etc. -- link this to a grievous Crushing Attack with Malediction, and blast away the HP that go with "internal ST."
Hope this help.

Last edited by Celjabba; 06-13-2017 at 02:19 AM.
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Old 06-13-2017, 02:23 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
per Kromm :




Hope this help.
It really does help. In fact it's perfect. thank you.
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Old 06-13-2017, 10:59 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by FuelDrop View Post
It really does help. In fact it's perfect. thank you.
Note that if you are wearing clothing when so afflicted, you'll be over 10 x BL, which should cost you 1 FP per second (p.B353). This will eventually render you unconscious, take your FT below full negative and start inflicting HP damage. You probably can't remove it yourself either - it's too heavy, but somebody else could save you by stripping you I guess.

General take away is with a 0 attribute the GM should forbid you from doing anything *useful*, but you will survive if somebody makes a serious effort to take care of you until you start to recover.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:31 AM   #5
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Default Re: What happens at Attribute 0

It is hard to imagine how someone with IQ or HT 0 could survive without technological/magical support.
Even reflex action should count as IQ 1 as it does involve minimal unconscious awareness of and response to surroundings. So super deep edge of death coma at best.
HT 0 would involve dying from all the myriad of organisms inside our bodies let alone ubiquitous yeasts on our skin.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:38 AM   #6
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Default Re: What happens at Attribute 0

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
It is hard to imagine how someone with IQ or HT 0 could survive without technological/magical support.
Even reflex action should count as IQ 1 as it does involve minimal unconscious awareness of and response to surroundings. So super deep edge of death coma at best.
HT 0 would involve dying from all the myriad of organisms inside our bodies let alone ubiquitous yeasts on our skin.
So would you rate Paramecium caudatum (who try to move away from salty water) at IQ1? ó_O
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:50 AM   #7
Flyndaran
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Default Re: What happens at Attribute 0

Gurps often rounds up fractional numbers, and we don't have fractional IQ, so since any IQ is above zero, sure, why not?
Slime molds have been shown to "learn" to "anticipate" changing temperature, so "pre-adapt" right before the scheduled change. I can't imagine even a coma patient lacking extreme levels of machine assistance having less nervous response than a slime mold.

Zero stats seem so hypothetical and impossible to ever occur in any remotely realistic situation that even clear gaming definitions get a bit odd.
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Old 06-13-2017, 12:14 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Gurps often rounds up fractional numbers, and we don't have fractional IQ, so since any IQ is above zero, sure, why not?
Because often is not always, and ruling this way results in unintended consequences?
Reflex actions do not require IQ1. Unless you think my thermostat and my 4 O'clock flowers both have IQ1, which I don't particularly think myself. The leaves of the 4 O'Clocks, for reference, turn towards the sun over the course of the day, and the flowers open in the afternoon around 4PM, then close around sunset, daily. I have no idea what pollinator they're trying to attract.
Trees, flowers, carnivorous plants, fungi, slime moulds (which can solve mazes!) seem pretty IQ0. A human in a coma is slightly less responsive than some of the above examples.
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Old 06-13-2017, 02:49 PM   #9
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Can you be encumbered when unconscious? I would assume that fp loss from 10x bl represents extreme cardio and muscle exertion, not physical crushing. Otherwise it would seem that strapping a 300 pound pack to my back should kill me in less than a minute, which doesn't seem credible.
The original context is moving heavy things on your back, so I'd say there isn't a textual problem with saying that you're not worn out by merely having them nearby and attached to you.

Rules for being slowly crushed are highly elusive even if you've got more than ST 0, but I definitely would agree that that's not what those are.
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Old 06-13-2017, 05:18 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by FuelDrop View Post
Just having issues finding the rules for this, but one of my players has picked up Leech (ST), so I want to know if there's anything significant that happens when ST hits 0.
See the FAQ:

Quote:
3.1.5 What do attribute levels of zero mean? (ST 0, DX 0, IQ 0, HT 0)

What does ST 0, exactly, mean in game terms?

ST 0 means you have Basic Lift 0 and can pick up nothing. If you have any encumbrance at all, even a gum wrapper, you collapse under its weight. You also have 0 damage, and can't even shove a door open or push aside a cobweb. However, you can walk and act, as long as your walking and acting doesn't involve doing anything other than moving your own body weight from A to B. Thus, air and fire elementals (p. B262) can have ST 0 without being immobilized, but can also be kept out by any barrier they can't penetrate by seeping around or burning. Note that overcoming air resistance, under normal circumstances, is considered negligible for game balance purposes.

What does DX 0, exactly, mean in game terms?

DX 0 mostly means that you have no useful ability to do anything DX-based at which you're not a dyed-in-the-wool, committed-to-muscle-memory master. At DX 0, even the most routine tasks that require DX rolls at +10 are a coin toss – 10 or less – so things that the GM normally waives rolls for now require rolls and fail half the time. Thus, the implied shove attack vs. a door or grapple attack vs. a doorknob, at +10 for utter simplicity and normally ignored, is now a 10 or less roll. You have a 50/50 chance of missing the door and fumbling around for a turn! Hurling yourself at the broad side of a barn has a 50% chance of failure, too, with a miss meaning you probably fell down trying to do it.

Default skill use is doomed. Your default level – not penalty, but level! – is -4 (E), -5 (A), or -6 (H) with DX-based skills. Under stress, you fail. Even in perfect circumstances with a +10, you have 6, 5, or 4, fail most of the time, and critically fail on 16+, 15+, or 14+. (Remember, you only get to try to roll a 3 or 4 on a defense!) This has important implications for people using, say, Driving by default, or recreationally shooting at their Guns default.

What does IQ 0, exactly, mean in game terms?

IQ 0 means you're a rutabaga. Per p. B15, at IQ 0, you're mindless and unable to act without somebody possessing you and operating you via remote control. You need at least IQ 1 to have a self and be able to perceive and act at all, which includes grunting and making gestures. You need at least IQ 6 to use tools and language – that is, to talk, wield weapons, etc. A human hit with -10 to IQ (making him IQ 0) is essentially a mindless clone body waiting to be possessed.

What does HT 0, exactly, mean in game terms?

What HT 0 means is that your HT roll is against 0. Almost all crippling injuries will be "lasting," and about half will be "permanent"; any major wound in combat is likely to knock you out (failing "0 or less" by five or more is about 98% likely); almost any lethal wound in combat will kill you (unless you roll 3-6, see the other FAQ entry); and afflictions, diseases, poisons, etc., will have their way with you. If you're at HT 0 for a long time, failed HT rolls to recover HP and resist the ravages of aging will kill you eventually. However, HT 0 doesn't mean instant death or even an instant coma . . . it just means inevitable infirmity, illness, decrepitude, and death unless you live in a bubble.

Also, mostly on machines: Numerous rules say, "Roll vs. HT or bust!" If a machine suffers enough damage to break down (p. B483) or fall apart (p. B484), is exposed to harsh conditions that could foul it (p. B485), is cinematically redlined (the "extra effort" option on p. 160 of Powers), is Fragile (esp. combustible, explosive, or flammable, p. B136) and exposed to damage that can trigger special injury effects, is Electrical and receives a dose of radiation (p. B436) or an electrical surge (p. 102 of Powers), is a vehicle that suffers a severe body hit that can cause power failure (p. B554), or needs to make a "structural integrity check" for any reason (to see if a rope snaps, a seal holds, etc.), then HT 0 means that, except by blind luck (a roll of 3-4), it is doomed to fail and come apart like a cheap toy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Basic page 15
How GURPS Works: IQ, Sentience, and Sapience
Sentience is self-awareness. Any being with a GURPS IQ of at least 1 is sentient by definition. To create nonsentient beings – plants, brainless clone bodies, etc. – take IQ 0, for -200 points. Nonsentient creatures cannot learn skills or have any purely mental traits.
Sapience is defined as the ability to use tools and language. In GURPS, this requires at least IQ 6. Those with IQ 5 or less cannot learn technological skills (see p. 168) or possess Languages (see p. 23) – not even the initial Language that most characters get for free. They can still communicate primitive concepts (such as hunger or danger) through gesture or vocalization, and may be trained to respond to a few commands (see Pets and Trained Animals, p. 458).
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