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Old 06-03-2017, 12:47 PM   #1
Exallted
 
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Default Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

Hi,

I've have recently started reading up o GURPS and so far I quite like it! I've have been, however, interested in Hackmaster 5th combat system - if you don't know it, I'll try to briefly explain it:

Hackmaster uses a so called "count up system", where the GM calls up up each second and everyone acts every second (no need to assign an initiave order). Two things are different from the seconds system from GURPS:

1. You may attack only based on your weapon speed, which is given in seconds: so, for example, I if my weapon speed is 6, and I take a swing on second 2, I can take another swing at second 8.
2. Movement speeds take acceleration (so to speak) into account: so, if my running speed is 9 yards per second, I can start moving only at a jog (half speed, in the first second I move) an then proceed to gradually increase the ground covered every second.

I think it's possible to adapt this system to GURPS (movement can be based on based speed and melee weapon speed could be based in ST requirements, maybe half ST?).
I have yet to read up on magic though, and I suspect the whole system may fall apart when it comes to firearms.

What do you guys think? Will it mess up with advantages, skills and such? What about firearms?

This post is a bit of a mess, I can try to explain Hackmaster's combat system better (as much as I understand it) and link to a pdf with a combat example, if someone wants it. There's also the Basic version of the rules, which can be found free online.
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Old 06-03-2017, 03:04 PM   #2
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

The thing is, an ST15 character should be able to move a broadsword faster than an ST8 character can move a short sword.
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Old 06-03-2017, 05:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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The thing is, an ST15 character should be able to move a broadsword faster than an ST8 character can move a short sword.

Good call. The system in Hackmaster takes that into account, I figure it wouldn't be hard to assign a +1 ou +2 (and negatives as well) and so on, depending on char ST.
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Old 06-03-2017, 06:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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Originally Posted by Exallted View Post
Hi,

I've have recently started reading up o GURPS and so far I quite like it! I've have been, however, interested in Hackmaster 5th combat system - if you don't know it, I'll try to briefly explain it:

Hackmaster uses a so called "count up system", where the GM calls up up each second and everyone acts every second (no need to assign an initiave order). Two things are different from the seconds system from GURPS:

1. You may attack only based on your weapon speed, which is given in seconds: so, for example, I if my weapon speed is 6, and I take a swing on second 2, I can take another swing at second 8.
2. Movement speeds take acceleration (so to speak) into account: so, if my running speed is 9 yards per second, I can start moving only at a jog (half speed, in the first second I move) an then proceed to gradually increase the ground covered every second.

I think it's possible to adapt this system to GURPS (movement can be based on based speed and melee weapon speed could be based in ST requirements, maybe half ST?).
I have yet to read up on magic though, and I suspect the whole system may fall apart when it comes to firearms.

What do you guys think? Will it mess up with advantages, skills and such? What about firearms?

This post is a bit of a mess, I can try to explain Hackmaster's combat system better (as much as I understand it) and link to a pdf with a combat example, if someone wants it. There's also the Basic version of the rules, which can be found free online.
I don't see a benefit to porting those features over from Hackmaster.

GURPS is already second by second, as you noted. The Turn Sequence accounts for the effects of your personal quickness and dexterity on combat and the rules regarding Ready/Unready weapons coupled with the rules on Weapon Reach (B388) coupled with your choice of Maneuver already account (in a different fashion) for the things that weapon speed would cover.

As for acceleration, that too is already covered. Unless you have Enhanced Move though, you accelerate quite quickly in GURPS, see Sprinting (B354).
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Old 06-03-2017, 06:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
I don't see a benefit to porting those features over from Hackmaster.

GURPS is already second by second, as you noted. The Turn Sequence accounts for the effects of your personal quickness and dexterity on combat and the rules regarding Ready/Unready weapons coupled with the rules on Weapon Reach (B388) coupled with your choice of Maneuver already account (in a different fashion) for the things that weapon speed would cover.

As for acceleration, that too is already covered. Unless you have Enhanced Move though, you accelerate quite quickly in GURPS, see Sprinting (B354).
I guess I just like the idea and how it supposedly works in a more dynamic way - as in everybody must keep their attention on the count or lose a potential action. Of course this can be enforced in a traditional turn by turn style. I suppose the novelty of it all really caught my attention.
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Old 06-03-2017, 09:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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I guess I just like the idea and how it supposedly works in a more dynamic way - as in everybody must keep their attention on the count or lose a potential action. Of course this can be enforced in a traditional turn by turn style. I suppose the novelty of it all really caught my attention.
Yes, I can see how it might, but weapon speed would need a lot of work to port over to GURPS. As is, weapon speed would probably have caused people to pay less attention.

If your weapon speed is 6, for the next five turns, you have nothing to do before you can strike again. Whereas under current GURPS rules you could, on average, have made a defense on the turn you made your initial strike (attack) and made five further attacks and five further defenses during those five turns.

I know which condition I'd find more interesting and more liable to keep my attention on the game (It's the same condition for both, getting the opportunity to do something every one second turn.)
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Old 06-04-2017, 05:05 AM   #7
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Yes, I can see how it might, but weapon speed would need a lot of work to port over to GURPS. As is, weapon speed would probably have caused people to pay less attention.

If your weapon speed is 6, for the next five turns, you have nothing to do before you can strike again. Whereas under current GURPS rules you could, on average, have made a defense on the turn you made your initial strike (attack) and made five further attacks and five further defenses during those five turns.

I know which condition I'd find more interesting and more liable to keep my attention on the game (It's the same condition for both, getting the opportunity to do something every one second turn.)
Fair enough!

Still, supposing the wait is something my group can handle, do you've any suggestion as to how weapon speed could be applied to firearms, especially those with RoF gretear than one?

I guess a musket or something like would feel right by having a delay of X seconds between shots, not so much so a revolver or a rifle.
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Old 06-04-2017, 06:17 AM   #8
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

Out of curiosity, I checked out Hackmaster Basic (free PDF download).

On the "count up" system for weapon speed, I'll mostly just repeat Curmudgeon here, but some thoughts:

While Hackmaster is presenting this "count up" as something unique, I don't see any real difference from GURPS in general concept: it's a system of checking, second by second, who does what.

The big difference that I see is this:

In GURPS, you can swing your shortsword this second, and then swing it again each second thereafter. Or you can swing your halberd this second, take a Ready maneuver the next second, then swing the halberd again the following second. And so on.

In Hackmaster, you can swing your shortsword this second, and then... take seven (!) Ready maneuvers in a row (borrowing GURPS' terminology; different words, same effect), and then swing your shortsword again. Or you can swing your halberd this second, then take thirteen (!!!) Ready maneuvers in a row, and then swing your halberd again.

Aye yi yi. I don't think I'll be looking to borrow from that...

That said, I can see that in play, things won't be as silly as they sound above. If pretty much every fighter is dealing with those looooong stretches of nothing, a lot of seconds will just whiz right by with nothing to resolve; actual strikes and rolls and deaths and all that will presumably play out as quickly as in any other game, player time-wise.

I guess the main difference is that in between those halberd strikes, Hackmaster characters who aren't swinging weapons have lots of time to do other things. Like move across the map, or cast spells... or maybe enjoy a nice cuppa... : )

Jokes aside, I can appreciate what the Hackmaster designers are looking to achieve: attack speeds that allow for one attack to be slightly faster or slightly slower than another. The system does allow that, though apparently by making the pace of all weapon attacks crazy slow. Not a solution I'm warm to personally, but again, I can appreciate what they're aiming for.

(Final note: I'm basing those comments on a cursory read of the rules. If I'm way off, smack me upside the head.)
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Last edited by tbone; 06-04-2017 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 06-04-2017, 06:48 AM   #9
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone View Post
Jokes aside, I can appreciate what the Hackmaster designers are looking to achieve: attack speeds that allow for one attack to be slightly faster or slightly slower than another. The system does allow that, though apparently by making the pace of all weapon attacks crazy slow. Not a solution I'm warm to personally, but again, I can appreciate what they're aiming for.

(Final note: I'm basing those comments on a cursory read of the rules. If I'm way off, smack me upside the head.)
Thanks for the input! You actually hit the nail on the head, I think: I do want some weapons attacking faster than others (like daggers being much faster than halberds). Ofc, GURPS models that with the ready action, but I think some more diversity among the weapons could be interesting.

One of the things that make characthers less idle in combat is the way movement works in Hackmaster: if your move speed is 30 feet, on second 1 that you start moving you move only 10 feet, on second 2 you can move up to 20 feet and so on. So you'd spend some of the seconds moving about, I believe. (something along these lines, can remember precisely the increase rates).
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:01 AM   #10
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

Hackmaster seems really slow, like suspension of disbelief breakingly slow. I'm not in any kind of shape, but it wouldn't take me nearly ten seconds to get two attacks off with a sword. If it's supposed to represent looking for an opening, GURPS already has that with the evaluate maneuver. It's not unreasonable for a skilled fighter to get off an attack every second in combat, at least that's the way it looks from everything I've seen.
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