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Old 05-14-2017, 12:04 AM   #1
Tim Kauffman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
Default OGRE self-destruction...

Some Fan musings on the topic...

FanMade OGRE Self-Destruct Command Function (OSDCF) Rule. (A working iteration of the official SD rule):

The 1st edition OGRE could self-destruct, then it was dropped...unfortunately. Imho, it should have been kept with a point value if you want to equip an OGRE with one or not.
The 1st draft 6th edition OGRE NINJA had self-destruct capability, but was also dropped in the latest, final version of the NINJA...unfortunately.
"The Ninja can self-destruct. Treat this as a Cruise Missile detonation. Note that the Ninja is intelligent and probably does not want to die."
[Official]

Imho, detonating with the force of a Cruise Missile may be too much. (Maybe this is why it was officially dropped?...it did give the OGRE extra attack range if used as a last attack, especially in the Attack The CP Scenarios). However, Imho, OGREs should be able to self-destruct as a optional ability if paid for based on the OGREs chassis/Mark size. The blast damage is progressively more the larger the OGRE, and it is in the same hex, less than the Cruise Missile OP attack. However, I do reserve the Cruise Missile detonation for the FanMade Mark 4 SHINOBI since it really suits that unique OGRE. If Combine would put such a cutting edge SD Technology on any of it's OGREs, it would be this one. All other Stealth OGREs were equipped with SD to prevent enemy capture and maximize their attack potential.
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The OGREs Mark size equals the Attack Strength all units in the same hex as it is in when self-destructing suffer.

* Mark 1, PIKEMAN = Attack Strength 1.
* Mark 2 = Attack Strength 2.
* Mark 3, 3B, NINJA = Attack Strength 3.
* Mark 4 = Attack Strength 4.
* Mark 5, FENCER = Attack Strength 5.
* Mark 6, DOPPELSOLDNER = Attack Strength 6.

* The FanMade Mark4 SHINOBI detonates with the force of a Cruise Missile.


+ Spillover Fire is not used for Self-Destruction attacks.

+ When self-destructing in the same hex as other OGREs or SUPERHEAVIES, attacks are against all the OGRE/SHVY weapons and tread units individually. Attacking OGRE/SHVY tread units this way is at 1:1 odds and targets them as many times as the self-destructing OGREs Mark size and damage equals the OGREs Mark size. NOTE: Unless the Self-Destruct is against a Non-Record Sheet SHVY, in which case it is attacked as a single unit as normal.

+ Self-Destruct occurs at the end of the Self-Destructing OGREs turn.

+ When using the official "OVERRUN COMBAT 8.00" rules while following the "8.04 Resolving an overrun attack." the OGRE Self-Destructs just before it is destroyed and removed from the game by the Overrun Attack.

+ All Stealth OGREs are equipped with Self-Destruct.
____________________________________________

The reason for mandatory equipping of this ability on all the Stealth OGREs was as a deterrent to prevent enemy capture and study of these rare and cutting edge units. The added cost of this technology was certainly worth being used on the Stealth Units, however, only marginally so on non-stealth OGREs unless their mission orientation made them so.
____________________________________________

I always liked the concept the OGRE could do one last "from hell's heart I stab at thee" attack. Exploding with the force of a Cruise Missile seems OP, maybe. So, just kicking around something that may work...keep the blast area in a single hex with variable damage based on the Mark of the OGRE. Easy to remember and execute and it's optional if you want the capability, you pay more, if not, don't. I think it has a place in OGRE. Maybe this tweeked iteration has merit.

I did some FanMade Stealth OGREs and they all are able to use the self-destruct..."SEPUKU" command as standard equipment which uses the officially dropped rule modified.
I have a poll going over on OGRE GEV BATTLESUIT
https://www.facebook.com/groups/114841403769/
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 05-19-2017 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 05-15-2017, 10:24 AM   #2
Misplaced Buckeye
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: OGRE self-destruction...

The Self destruct Option would not be limited to Descartes but to the whim of the armed forces employing it. First off, since the vehicle is not sentient it would have no concern over whether it's commanders sitting in their nice warm bunkers would throw the switch to detonate. If they thought it was recoverable after the battle then of course they wouldn't but if I could detonate a Mark 2 to take out a Mark 4 you betcha. Now the ability to transmit that signal through all the ECM might factor in. Also the factor whether your Ogre is fighting on home turf would factor in, as well as whether even if you lost the battle could re recover the territory later.
We talk about the Ogre being self aware. Question then; Do any of the Ogres without the Descates package have human on board commanders, similar to the Bolo?
You can also look at the self destruct option the same way the US "cleanses" downed aircraft only wanting to turn the machine to unsalvageable rubble with no intel.
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Old 05-16-2017, 12:22 AM   #3
Tim Kauffman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
Default Re: OGRE self-destruction...

That's a good point about OGREs with or without the Descartes Package. I edited the rules to reflect it's consideration. (Still a WIP about how to have that all function).

I'm pretty sure OGREs of any sort never had human crew, at least all the background stuff says so.

I definitely see Self-Destruct being a viable option especially for the Combine Stealth OGREs for example to keep them from being captured and studied/reverse-engineered.

The remote signal to Self-Destruct for non-sentient OGREs is an interesting idea.

So we have three solid categories to work with now:

* Human Remote Controlled OGRE Self-Destruct.

* Non-Sentient OGRE Self-Destruct. (Part of the OGREs mission orientation programming).

* Descartes Packaged OGRE Self-Destruct.


The whole Descartes Package/ Sentient OGRE vs non-sentient as it relates to OGRE Self-Destruction needs iterated more. That's a very deep subject with many various reasons why things may or may not be in the OGREverse. I'd like to see it back in the game officially. I suspect it was dropped because the concept wasn't able to be used as a sufficient rule in the game. Maybe the Cruise Missile sized attack blast was deemed OP? Which is why I suggested the Mark valued attack blast strength and made it in the same hex as the self-destructing OGRE. Which is why I'm kicking this whole thing around again...maybe we can iterate this into a viable in-game rule that compliments the background while adding interesting new tactical options and gameplay.
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 05-16-2017 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 05-16-2017, 09:16 AM   #4
FJCestero
 
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Charleston SC, USA
Default Re: OGRE self-destruction...

I'll jump in here for a bit...

It might make sense game-wise to give OGREs a self-destruct (SD) option (for VP points) limited to the same hex, and maybe adjacents. This wouldn't alter game play too much because if the CP is within the blast radius then it was in AP range anyways. All the SD could do is kill more defenders and change the degree of defeat, but not the final outcome. I would however suggest making it a flat value and not something based on the OGRE mark. To much to remember, KISS.

On a somewhat separate topic however, there's nothing that prevents an OGRE from just carrying a CM warhead into battle. Obviously, this should be paid for in VPs (much more than the SD option above) and be VERY scenario specific.

I would argue against Descartes OGREs using either of these systems. Suicide attacks are very seldom militarily viable tactics. Human suicide attackers have invariably been the young, impressionable, unskilled, indoctrinated types. Elite troops rely on their skills to fight and judgement so as to never find themselves in such a situation. And Descartes OGREs are top-of-the-line equipment, not the expendable, destined for the junk-yard anyways stuff. Only a non-Descartes OGRE would self-destruct because an if-then statement told it to.

I would strongly argue against remote-controlled detonation. Too hackable. One General has an affair with the wrong hot-looking honey-trap spy and half your battlefront just went bye-bye. So no. I might also point out that neither our aircraft carriers nor any of our ballistic missiles have that cinematic option installed. There might be a practical reason for that state of affairs...
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Old 05-17-2017, 02:09 AM   #5
Tim Kauffman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
Default Re: OGRE self-destruction...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FJCestero View Post
It might make sense game-wise to give OGREs a self-destruct (SD) option (for VP points) limited to the same hex, and maybe adjacents. This wouldn't alter game play too much because if the CP is within the blast radius then it was in AP range anyways. All the SD could do is kill more defenders and change the degree of defeat, but not the final outcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FJCestero View Post
I would however suggest making it a flat value and not something based on the OGRE mark. To much to remember, KISS.
I can't see a Mark one Self-Destructing with the same force as a Mark 6 or Doppelsoldner. I wouldn't prefer a single average blast value for everything either. Too generic for my liking. I think it's memory worthy to use...The attack strength = the OGREs Mark value. If a OGRE is equipped to Self-Destruct, you would have to notate that on it's Unit Record Card anyway. In this case, using the proposed Mark = SD attack strength rule just note "SD 5" for a FENCER for example. At-A-Glance" easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FJCestero View Post
On a somewhat separate topic however, there's nothing that prevents an OGRE from just carrying a CM warhead into battle. Obviously, this should be paid for in VPs (much more than the SD option above) and be VERY scenario specific.
That's an interesting idea. I'd think it would cost the OGRE some movement penalty to carry one though because of the added weight, unless of course other weapon systems were removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FJCestero View Post
I would argue against Descartes OGREs using either of these systems. Suicide attacks are very seldom militarily viable tactics. Human suicide attackers have invariably been the young, impressionable, unskilled, indoctrinated types. Elite troops rely on their skills to fight and judgement so as to never find themselves in such a situation. And Descartes OGREs are top-of-the-line equipment, not the expendable, destined for the junk-yard anyways stuff. Only a non-Descartes OGRE would self-destruct because an if-then statement told it to.
I generally see the SD ability not to be like the GOLIATH's mission orientation...that's designed to be a suicide OGRE Cruise Missile basically, which is really awesome, but rather a less target specific use. If the OGRE decides it will soon be destroyed by the enemy, and it can destroy more enemy by SDing it would SD as a way to leverage it's attack value. The NINJA and FanMade Stealth OGREs would be even more hard programmed to SD to prevent enemy capture because they are more expensive and advanced, preventing enemy capture. Thus, none of these OGREs with SD capability are actually looking to SD as part of their mission orientation, it would only be considered as a last option should they be damaged to that point and they don't expect to be recovered. Not unlike some brave warrior fighting to the bitter end against overwhelming odds as the tide of battle had turned against their favor.

However, maybe there would be instances of a OGRE being programmed to SD as a suicide mission orientation. In fact, a good example can be the FanMade Mark 4 SHINOBI which SDs with the force of a Cruise Missile which could be programmed to SD following more of the GOLIATHs mission orientation once it reaches it's mission target like the Stuttgart Factory in my little 4 Part Story-Arc. It may not have to SD, but it would be strongly inclined to do so for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FJCestero View Post
I would strongly argue against remote-controlled detonation. Too hackable. One General has an affair with the wrong hot-looking honey-trap spy and half your battlefront just went bye-bye. So no. I might also point out that neither our aircraft carriers nor any of our ballistic missiles have that cinematic option installed. There might be a practical reason for that state of affairs...
I'm not sure about the remote self-destruct either, but maybe as a fail-safe to be sure a OGRE with Descartes Packaging follows through SDing if High Command deems it important enough?

I'm exploring the Descartes Packaged OGREs and OGRE Self-Destructing because such is the stuff of legendary battles and moments that potentially could be manifest in the OGREverse in the form of stories, deeper background revelations and Scenario possibilities if iterated more into something complimentary than what we currently have.

So, long winded again, but what can I say, it's a very cool and expansive topic that has a lot of potential for somehow being manifest in the game-play Imho. I know Drew's working on the NIGHT FALL scenario stuff, and this all has relevance. Maybe this iterative kicking around will help spark other ideas.
__________________
"So I stood my ground...my only hope to die as I had always lived-fighting" John Carter of Mars

My Flicker Page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248...57680554140954

Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 05-19-2017 at 04:54 PM.
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