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Old 05-11-2017, 09:58 AM   #31
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Well, after 3 seconds you can increase that +1 to +3, which you can't do with a +1 to Guns.
How? The bonus for zoom 3 is +1, thus it kicks in after one second of Aiming.
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:15 AM   #32
DouglasCole
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
How? The bonus for zoom 3 is +1, thus it kicks in after one second of Aiming.
Keep aiming and your bonus goes up, does it not?
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:18 AM   #33
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

A x3 scope is just a weird breakpoint for GURPS, which uses multiples of 2. I'd probably just call a x3 scope a +2 bonus and be done with it.
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:19 AM   #34
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Keep aiming and your bonus goes up, does it not?
Your get your +Acc after one second and another +1 for the second second and yet another +1 for the third second.

For fixed scopes, you get your full bonus after you have aimed for seconds equal to the scope bonus. For variable scopes, you get a bonus equal to the number of seconds you Aimed, but it caps out at the scope level.
Scope levels are:
+1 for 2 or better.
+2 for 4 or better.
+3 for 8 or better.
+4 for 16 or better.
+5 for 32 or better.
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:43 AM   #35
DouglasCole
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Your get your +Acc after one second and another +1 for the second second and yet another +1 for the third second.
Which is precisely what I said. After three seconds the bonus on the +1 scope increases to +3.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:01 AM   #36
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Which is precisely what I said. After three seconds the bonus on the +1 scope increases to +3.
I must be misunderstanding something. What does the bonus I listed have to do with scopes? It applies even to weapons without iron sights, such as bows. The scope bonuses are described in the second paragraph.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:42 AM   #37
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I must be misunderstanding something. What does the bonus I listed have to do with scopes? It applies even to weapons without iron sights, such as bows. The scope bonuses are described in the second paragraph.
My point was that you get the +1 from the reflex sight just because; it's a skill increase. You don't need to take one or more Aim maneuvers with all that implies for defenses and motion and whatnot. On the other hand, that +1 is all you ever get.

With Aimed shooting, you can increase a +1 to +3 by taking more time.


Let's do this with an example Acc 4 rifle, so we're not limited in any way.

Reflex:

Turn 1: You can just shoot, and you get +1 to Guns.

alternately:

Turn 1: You Aim, and claim +4 based on Acc and another +1 to Guns. (+5)
Turn 2: +1 Acc due to more time (total +6)
Turn 3: +1 Acc due to more time (total and max +7)
Turn 4: Shoot, maybe claiming another +1 for AoA (Determined) (Skill+8)


Scope

Turn 1: You Aim, and claim +4 based on Acc and another +1 to Acc. (+5)
Turn 2: +1 Acc due to more time (total +6)
Turn 3: +1 Acc due to more time (total and max +7)
Turn 4: Shoot, maybe claiming another +1 for AoA (Determined) (Skill+8)


So rather than a red herring with other scope magnifications, the correct point with which to challenge my assertion is simply that because you can still aim with a reflex sight and claim the increased bonus, they stack up the same and so there is no benefit without apoc527's nudge to give them +2. So the poster was right: while in the real world, that x3 mag seems to be worth something, in the GURPS world, it's not.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:58 AM   #38
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
So rather than a red herring with other scope magnifications, the correct point with which to challenge my assertion is simply that because you can still aim with a reflex sight and claim the increased bonus, they stack up the same and so there is no benefit without apoc527's nudge to give them +2. So the poster was right: while in the real world, that x3 mag seems to be worth something, in the GURPS world, it's not.
I was unsure where the +3 was coming from.

As far as fudging scope stats, I've been occasionally saddened that the 1 scope of Steyr AUG A1's gives no benefit. At least in 4e - I am not sure, but it may or may not have reduced Snapshot in 3e. IIRC it was advertised as intended for quicker target acquisition. But it seems some things are just below the granularity, and lines have to be drawn somewhere.

One solution I've been considering for the crunchier campaigns is a +1 to Guns that doesn't stack with Acc at all, intended only to work with totally unaimed shots through such 'quick scopes'.
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:03 PM   #39
DouglasCole
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

I have to wonder if an alternate solution for scopes would be to simply rewrite the SSR table for your scope.
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:06 PM   #40
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I have to wonder if an alternate solution for scopes would be to simply rewrite the SSR table for your scope.
I'm suspicious of having multiple SSRTs in the game. I still haven't fully memorized one (probably due to combats being rare for the last half-decade or so).
I do think that a hypothetical 5e may be better served by saying that scopes only negate some amount of penalties instead of offering a bonus. But that's probably an edge case anyway.
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