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Old 05-10-2017, 06:54 AM   #21
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I'd probably just let 'em stack: You always get the +1 to Guns skill because magnified or not, you can see the dot and you keep both eyes open; aim and you get another +1 for the magnifying scope (just so it does something).
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Originally Posted by HANS View Post
Magnification (Acc bonus) and improved target acquistion (red dot and open eyes for +1 to Guns) are mutually exclusive. Once the magnifier is put in place, the combination works as a scope, more or less (at least enough for game purposes), with the red dot taking the place of the crosshairs or whatever in a conventional scope. In other words, either +X Acc or +1 Guns, never both at the same time.

Cheers

HANS
What are the arguments for picking this or that interpretation?
To me it seems like the biggest thing that could be an argument in favour of non-stacking is if there's some fundamental difference between looking through a scope and seeing the 'real' dot vs. looking through a magnifier and seeing a reflex dot. But it's quite possible that I'm misunderstanding what other difference are involved. (I tried shooting with iron sights and practicing in 'dry' mode with a targeting LASER, but not with a real scope nor a real collimator.)

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I have already mentioned it: the fact that you can keep both eyes open with a red dot. This vastly improves sight acquisition and situational awareness. This is the underlying reason for the +1 to Guns. As soon as you add magnification, you get tunnel vision and can only sight with the one eye to the tube. This allows you to take advantage of the magnification, but robs you of the fast acquisition.

Cheers

HANS
But that seems to be something universal for all magnifiers, yet seeing a real (LASER) dot through a scope (with magnification) stacks. I'm trying to understand why tunnel vision is a problem for reflex dots but not for real dots.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:05 AM   #22
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
What are the arguments for picking this or that interpretation?
To me it seems like the biggest thing that could be an argument in favour of non-stacking is if there's some fundamental difference between looking through a scope and seeing the 'real' dot vs. looking through a magnifier and seeing a reflex dot. But it's quite possible that I'm misunderstanding what other difference are involved. (I tried shooting with iron sights and practicing in 'dry' mode with a targeting LASER, but not with a real scope nor a real collimator.)


But that seems to be something universal for all magnifiers, yet seeing a real (LASER) dot through a scope (with magnification) stacks. I'm trying to understand why tunnel vision is a problem for reflex dots but not for real dots.
The huge advantage of the reflex/collimating sights is that you do not have to align target, front sight, and rear sight. You just have to place that dot on the target. That is much quicker and easier, especially since you can even see the dot if your head is not perfectly aligned. Anything with magnification makes the alignment of the target, reticle, and head critical. I stand by my assessment, backed up by my experience with the things, that the advantages do not stack.
Now, the other question is why you can use a targeting laser with a telecopic sight, as High-Tech claims. Frankly, I have no personal experience with these, as targeting lasers are verboten in Germany. On reflection, though, this may be a genuine error, as the advantage of a targeting laser is similar to a red dot; you do not need to look at the sights, only the target. However, you always need to look through a scope to get the Acc bonus. That probably couldn't mix in a way that allows stacking the advantages.

Cheers

HANS
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:26 AM   #23
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by HANS View Post
Now, the other question is why you can use a targeting laser with a telecopic sight, as High-Tech claims. Frankly, I have no personal experience with these, as targeting lasers are verboten in Germany. On reflection, though, this may be a genuine error, as the advantage of a targeting laser is similar to a red dot; you do not need to look at the sights, only the target. However, you always need to look through a scope to get the Acc bonus. That probably couldn't mix in a way that allows stacking the advantages.

Cheers

HANS
I know the popular image of snipers shining their red dots on a target is a thing, but I do not have knowledge to say whether they're based on reality. If not, then that may be an error. However, if this popular image is based on real life, then some sort of benefit looks more plausible.

Anyone else with more knowledge/experience in the matter willing to chime in?
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:12 AM   #24
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
What are the arguments for picking this or that interpretation?
That Hans has used them in actual gunfire tests, and I have not. I accept his interpretation for both game-mechanical and use-case reasons.


Quote:
But that seems to be something universal for all magnifiers, yet seeing a real (LASER) dot through a scope (with magnification) stacks. I'm trying to understand why tunnel vision is a problem for reflex dots but not for real dots.
The reflex and laser sights are both "eyes open on target" devices. The dot appears floating in the air (obviously within the glass of the scope) and you squeeze the trigger when the dot is more or less where you want it, and this helps you do everything faster. That's +1 to Guns.

When you're focusing to get Accuracy, you actually are looking at your weapon - either into the scope tube or holding the front sight of your weapon in sharp relief. This cuts down on awareness of *everything* else but where you're pointing it. It is more accurate (it had better be) but of a necessity it restricts your focus and perception.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:17 AM   #25
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I know the popular image of snipers shining their red dots on a target is a thing, but I do not have knowledge to say whether they're based on reality. If not, then that may be an error. However, if this popular image is based on real life, then some sort of benefit looks more plausible.

Anyone else with more knowledge/experience in the matter willing to chime in?
I VERY much suspect this is a theatrical conceit, much like holding a pistol by your face (which keeps the gun in the camera frame, but is otherwise pretty poor weapon handling for many reasons).

A laser dot on a chest is visceral for the audience. Unless there's dust in the air, it WON'T be visceral for the target unless they catch sight of the beam.

With a rifle, especially a scoped one, the laser dot is actually not helpful in increasing Accuracy. The laser is straight, but the bullet arcs. There are dots and stuff on proper scopes that help you adjust for such that are going to be more precise than a laser, especially as the beam spreads and diffuses at range.
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:31 PM   #26
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

I would note that there is a combination of a laser and a scope that makes sense, and is used in the real world (at least for vehicular weapons), and would legitimately give a bonus to aimed shots -- but it's not a laser sight. It's a laser rangefinder.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:31 AM   #27
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

Thanks to hans for some good answers.

So is the reflex sight (+1 Guns) only good for Sighted Shots? Or is it for Unsighted as well?

And the magnifier (combined with the red dot) is only good for Aimed Shots?
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:43 AM   #28
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

Seems like if they don't stack, a reflex sight with a x3 magnifier would be nearly pointless. You can choose between a general +1 to Guns skill or +1 to certain Guns skill rolls.

The only benefit I see is that the magnifier also gives you a low powered telescope, good for a bonus on vision rolls.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:54 AM   #29
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
Thanks to hans for some good answers.

So is the reflex sight (+1 Guns) only good for Sighted Shots? Or is it for Unsighted as well?

And the magnifier (combined with the red dot) is only good for Aimed Shots?
Sighted only; if you don't look for the dot (sighted shooting), you don't get the benefit. There's a suggestion in On Target, Pyr #3/77 (the box on p. 26), to provide more variation in what Sighted Shooting might be expanded to include.

And yah, you have to Aim to claim the bonus for any magnifying optic, as your focus shifts from target to scope.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:55 AM   #30
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
Seems like if they don't stack, a reflex sight with a x3 magnifier would be nearly pointless. You can choose between a general +1 to Guns skill or +1 to certain Guns skill rolls.

The only benefit I see is that the magnifier also gives you a low powered telescope, good for a bonus on vision rolls.
Well, after 3 seconds you can increase that +1 to +3, which you can't do with a +1 to Guns.
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