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Old 05-08-2017, 12:33 PM   #1
Mark Skarr
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Default Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Pink Light has a LogST of 35, and a BL of 6,324 (equivalent to an old ST of 178). She has 5 levels of Striking LogST giving her a Thrust of 8d.

She can pickup and throw an empty van (lwt 3.5 - load of 1, for 5,000 lbs; 68 HP from the Vehicles list on Campaigns, pg 464) 106 yards in 1 second and do 10d+1 damage with it. (With Old ST she would do 28d+1 throwing the van.)

However, if that van was moving under its own power at 212 mph (woo-hoo!) it would collide for 72d of damage (68 x 106 = 7,208. 7,208 / 100 = 72.08 for 72d).

As it is, she's hitting someone with as much force as the van would have traveling at 30 mph (15 yd/sec). Throwing damage seems rather . . . anemic. Throwing with normal ST damage, would be the equivalent of the van moving about 82 mph (41 yd/sec). And, while better still isn't in line with the van's actual speed.

Does anyone have any suggestions for correcting this other than simply replacing throwing damage with Slam damage for large objects?

Last edited by Mark Skarr; 05-08-2017 at 12:35 PM. Reason: It didn't paste my question--silly notepad!
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:39 PM   #2
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
Pink Light has a LogST of 35, and a BL of 6,324 (equivalent to an old ST of 178). She has 5 levels of Striking LogST giving her a Thrust of 8d.

She can pickup and throw an empty van (lwt 3.5 - load of 1, for 5,000 lbs; 68 HP from the Vehicles list on Campaigns, pg 464) 106 yards in 1 second and do 10d+1 damage with it. (With Old ST she would do 28d+1 throwing the van.)

However, if that van was moving under its own power at 212 mph (woo-hoo!) it would collide for 72d of damage (68 x 106 = 7,208. 7,208 / 100 = 72.08 for 72d).

As it is, she's hitting someone with as much force as the van would have traveling at 30 mph (15 yd/sec). Throwing damage seems rather . . . anemic. Throwing with normal ST damage, would be the equivalent of the van moving about 82 mph (41 yd/sec). And, while better still isn't in line with the van's actual speed.

Does anyone have any suggestions for correcting this other than simply replacing throwing damage with Slam damage for large objects?
I think it's pretty clear that switching to LogSt (from the Knowing Your Own Strength Pyramid article, I presume?) really needs you to adjust both the HP of lots of things, and the collision damage rules in general. Given what switching to LogST does to damage potential in comparison to overall force and power behind a character's attacks, I rather suspect the answer would be to reduce Slam damage rather than increase throwing damage to match.
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Have you adjusted the van's ST/HP score to account for the LogST? Remember that the Basic Set stats were developed using the standard quadrolic ST/HP scaling, not the LogST scaling.


Edit: ninja'd!
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:49 PM   #4
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
I think it's pretty clear that switching to LogSt (from the Knowing Your Own Strength Pyramid article, I presume?) really needs you to adjust both the HP of lots of things, and the collision damage rules in general. Given what switching to LogST does to damage potential in comparison to overall force and power behind a character's attacks, I rather suspect the answer would be to reduce Slam damage rather than increase throwing damage to match.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
Have you adjusted the van's ST/HP score to account for the LogST? Remember that the Basic Set stats were developed using the standard quadrolic ST/HP scaling, not the LogST scaling.
Yes, from KYOS. And you can use HP exactly as they are listed. There is a header in KYOS "Weight-Based Hit Points."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyramid 3-83, pg 18
This offers the major benefit of not requiring an overhaul of the entire damage system!

<snip>

For inanimate objects use empty weight and round up. The 2.5-ton van on p. B464 still has 68 HP, despite having only ST 35.
Emphasis from article.

Which is one of the reasons I picked the van. The HP didn't change and it fit, neatly, in her Thrust+1/die range.

As a further addendum, I did calculate thrown distance from the old ST (or, more specifically x^((LogST+10)/20) rounded to the nearest number. As it didn't make any sense for someone who could lift a van with one hand could barely throw it 20 yards.

ETA:
However, let's look at that. Basing Throwing entirely off of the LogST value of 35 (and not the oldST value of 178), she can throw the van 21 yards. The slam damage would be 14d of damage. While closer to her output, doesn't seem appropriate for someone who can throw vans around with one hand.

Last edited by Mark Skarr; 05-08-2017 at 12:52 PM. Reason: Added additional LogST information.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:00 PM   #5
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
Does anyone have any suggestions for correcting this other than simply replacing throwing damage with Slam damage for large objects?
You can renormalize damage for log ST, but if you do that its point cost should be changed -- it should shift by about a step on the range/speed chart for every 5 ST, and getting x10 damage for 30 levels striking ST (150 points) is a bit low.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
Yes, from KYOS. And you can use HP exactly as they are listed. There is a header in KYOS "Weight-Based Hit Points."


Emphasis from article.

Which is one of the reasons I picked the van. The HP didn't change and it fit, neatly, in her Thrust+1/die range.

As a further addendum, I did calculate thrown distance from the old ST (or, more specifically x^((LogST+10)/20) rounded to the nearest number. As it didn't make any sense for someone who could lift a van with one hand could barely throw it 20 yards.

ETA:
However, let's look at that. Basing Throwing entirely off of the LogST value of 35 (and not the oldST value of 178), she can throw the van 21 yards. The slam damage would be 14d of damage. While closer to her output, doesn't seem appropriate for someone who can throw vans around with one hand.
Even if you're keeping HP the same for convenience's sake (although I wonder about that, at the high end you could have someone capable of lifting the planet unable to knock down a wall in one hit), I think you need to adjust the collision/Slam rules, since the ones from Basic have dice of damage increase roughly as the square root of increases in kinetic energy (I say roughly because HP standing in for mass may be overvalued, but it's linear with velocity), whereas the ST that's now determining thrust damage - including throwing damage - determines force/power logarithmically, so of course you're going to see lower numbers of dice for the same mass and velocity of thrown object vs what you get from calculating it as a collision in Basic.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Even if you're keeping HP the same for convenience's sake (although I wonder about that, at the high end you could have someone capable of lifting the planet unable to knock down a wall in one hit), I think you need to adjust the collision/Slam rules, since the ones from Basic have dice of damage increase roughly as the square root of increases in kinetic energy (I say roughly because HP standing in for mass may be overvalued, but it's linear with velocity), whereas the ST that's now determining thrust damage - including throwing damage - determines force/power logarithmically, so of course you're going to see lower numbers of dice for the same mass and velocity of thrown object vs what you get from calculating it as a collision in Basic.
While I realize you were being hyperbolic, a character who could lift the planet (1.32x10^25 lbs) would have a LogST of about 224, and do 54d thrust damage. I'm pretty sure they could take a wall out in one hit.

Revamping Slam damage for LogST:
Should we take slam damage as a flat function of Thrust, and say, add the modifier from the speed/range table (as it's also a log function)?

The LogST 35/68 HP van, moving 50 mph (25 yps) would then do
(base thrust would be 7d-1, rounding damage down to +6, 7d+5 or) 8d+1 slamming damage for the collision? That does seem rather anemic for a 50 mph collision. While it could, potentially, kill a person (but not likely), it wouldn't be able to reduce the van's HP to 0.

[edit]
The van's original slam damage would be 17d.
[/edit]

Or, if we add the speed bonus as +x per die . . .
+6 / die becomes +42 in our example above. Which would make the collision 19d-1. Average damage is almost enough to reduce the van to 0 HP (61 hp of damage after DR 4).

If we extended that to throwing:
Pink Light throwing a van 20 yards (40 mph) would do 8d + 6/die and would inflict 23d+2 for the damage.

If we cap the damage something can inflict in a slam/throw to, say, HP in dice, that prevents her from being able to throw a HP 10 person (who, with the base LogST throwing range 122 yards) for 30d+3 damage, it's capped at 10d. While that would not be sufficient to kill the person outright (on average, taking them to -2xHP), it is sufficient to put them out of the fight. And, assuming they hit something hard the damage would be doubled for the target and they would take 20d, killing them on average.

Last edited by Mark Skarr; 05-08-2017 at 02:39 PM. Reason: Added base slam damage.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

What would she do with a throwing axe or a longbow scaled to her ST?


I admit I'm very hesitant to consider scenarios where random pieces of scenery are vastly superior to purpose built weaponry
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Well, a Longbow with a LogST 35 would do 7d+1 imp damage (one with LogST 40 would do 8d+2 imp).

The throwing axe with a Min ST of 11, x3 is 33, so that's already close to 35. That would top out at 6d+1, so it would become 6d+3 cut with a range of 35/52.

However, a 2oz arrow and a 4 lb axe are not a two-and-a-half ton hunk of metal flying through the air. The bow would have a range of 525/700 and the van has a range of 21 (or 106). I think the van should inflict significantly more damage.

Keeping in mind if she throws anything less than about 800 lbs, the throwing damage is thrust -2/die so a 700lb motorcycle would only inflict 4d-2 damage to someone.

Hence, "there's somethin' funny goin' on around here."
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:58 PM   #10
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Well, scaled to her ST she might expect a 2.5 strong longbow flinging Thr + 5 downrange or Sw+5 throwing axes that weigh 6.25 times as much as normal specimens

It just gives me a very dissonant image where Thor goes to the armory and is asked 'Do you care for a hammer, an axe, a bow?' 'No,' says Thor, 'Bring me a . . . . Volvo Wagon'
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