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Old 05-08-2017, 02:15 PM   #11
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Psionic Powers: Question about a build

It's starting to sound to me as if the writeup is conflating two distinct conditions:

You must be able to perceive the Subject, either by touch or by a Precise ranged sense (it need not be a Targeting ranged sense, but Targeting gives a bonus).

You must be able to define the coordinates of the Destination relative to the Subject.
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:16 PM   #12
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Default Re: Psionic Powers: Question about a build

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
A base Affliction is a ranged attack, so no.

Or presumably "no". Curiously, I didn't see anything in the Ranged Attack section on B372 saying you had to be able to see your target. Just that it had to be in range. One of those points that seemed too obvious to think to write down, I suppose. The Aim Maneuver does explicitly state that you have to be able to "see or otherwise detect" your target, but Attack does not. Though the existence of Targeting senses implies that you can't target targets without one.
I have always assumed that ranged attacks on subjects you can't see worked the same as melee attacks on subjects you can't see.
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:25 PM   #13
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Default Re: Psionic Powers: Question about a build

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
It's starting to sound to me as if the writeup is conflating two distinct conditions:

You must be able to perceive the Subject, either by touch or by a Precise ranged sense (it need not be a Targeting ranged sense, but Targeting gives a bonus).

You must be able to define the coordinates of the Destination relative to the Subject.
I think you're right they are distinct, but I don't think it's around Blind Only that the conflation occurs. That happens in the description where the Afflicting part of the mechanic is tangled up with Teleportation Modifiers and the distance of the teleport. This is, I suppose, part of the Feature in the notation that combines two rolls into one modified by two distances. I'm not sure how canonical that would be if it were not published there under PK's by-line.

As for Blind Only, when coupled with the layers of Reliable it can buy, I think the point is to remove a unimportant version (the unmodified ability) of how it could work in favour of a better way (coordinates).
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:28 PM   #14
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Default Re: Psionic Powers: Question about a build

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I have always assumed that ranged attacks on subjects you can't see worked the same as melee attacks on subjects you can't see.
In melee, if the target is behind you, and thus unseen, you attack at -6, or -4 if you know his position to within 1 yard, and your attack is a wild swing. It seems to be the same in ranged combat. But Malediction says you must be able to "see, or otherwise clearly perceive," which seems to say attack is impossible. That would presumably be a special case.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: Psionic Powers: Question about a build

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
It's starting to sound to me as if the writeup is conflating two distinct conditions:

You must be able to perceive the Subject, either by touch or by a Precise ranged sense (it need not be a Targeting ranged sense, but Targeting gives a bonus).

You must be able to define the coordinates of the Destination relative to the Subject.
Yes, so it seems.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:31 PM   #16
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Default Re: Psionic Powers: Question about a build

I think I'm going to say that the thing that looks unnecessary to me is Blind Only, -50%. The volition in this case is not that of the Subject, but of the Teleporter. And the Teleporter can see or otherwise perceive the Subject, and for most uses of this power, they can perceive the Destination as well. It wouldn't make a big change in this power to assume that a visible Destination was required; it would probably make it simpler, as there wouldn't be an issue of figuring out the coordinates of the Destination relative to the Subject.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:48 PM   #17
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Default Re: Psionic Powers: Question about a build

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I think I'm going to say that the thing that looks unnecessary to me is Blind Only, -50%. The volition in this case is not that of the Subject, but of the Teleporter. And the Teleporter can see or otherwise perceive the Subject, and for most uses of this power, they can perceive the Destination as well. It wouldn't make a big change in this power to assume that a visible Destination was required; it would probably make it simpler, as there wouldn't be an issue of figuring out the coordinates of the Destination relative to the Subject.
There is no reason you can't change it.

But just to note:

-figuring out the coordinates involves no special steps, it is subsumed in the roll.

-I don't think where the volition lies was ever anywhere but the user in the build.

-The FP pricing in the build uses that supplied for Blind/Blind Only. Removing them will reduce your FP costs

-The -5 to skill for Blind/Blind Only will also be removed; you may want to adjust the Reliable level accordingly for pricing.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: Psionic Powers: Question about a build

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I think I'm going to say that the thing that looks unnecessary to me is Blind Only, -50%. The volition in this case is not that of the Subject, but of the Teleporter. And the Teleporter can see or otherwise perceive the Subject, and for most uses of this power, they can perceive the Destination as well. It wouldn't make a big change in this power to assume that a visible Destination was required; it would probably make it simpler, as there wouldn't be an issue of figuring out the coordinates of the Destination relative to the Subject.
If you remove the blind only then two things should be noted:
1) It gets more expensive
2) At low power without blind only you can too easily transport things to any location in the world if you have enough skill/take enough time.
3) If you have enough of it to affect yourself then exoteleport will be very different from teleport in that without blind only you can teleport to things like "home" or "the grocery store" even if you do not know where you are as long as you know the destination and you can succeed in the range penalty based roll of unknown difficulty. Thus it becomes a magic spell.

Further as personal note: I would likely not allow an afflicted warp without "blind only" in my games unless the range is really limited as it would allow short circuiting too many things.

Things like:
"GM: The bad guy is doing a TV ransom demand from unknown location. Player:I will warp a tracking device to his pocket"
"GM: You all wake up after being abducted. You are tied up but can see and hear that you are in the freight compartment of an airplane. Player: I will look around so I can visualize this place later, warp all of us home, ask my servant to untie us, grab guns and warp us back to the plane"
and so many of others.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:53 PM   #19
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Default Re: Psionic Powers: Question about a build

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
Further as personal note: I would likely not allow an afflicted warp without "blind only" in my games unless the range is really limited as it would allow short circuiting too many things.

Things like:
"GM: The bad guy is doing a TV ransom demand from unknown location. Player:I will warp a tracking device to his pocket"
"GM: You all wake up after being abducted. You are tied up but can see and hear that you are in the freight compartment of an airplane. Player: I will look around so I can visualize this place later, warp all of us home, ask my servant to untie us, grab guns and warp us back to the plane"
and so many of others.
Well, your second example seems to be Autoteleport, as otherwise your friends will go to your home, but you'll still be in the plane. And if it's Autoteleport you don't need to afflict them; you just need to pick them all up before you warp!

If you want to avoid that sort of thing, Warp also offers Range Limit, which incidentally makes it cheaper againó-40% for 100 yards, which is a plausible combat range.

The other question that occurs to me: How does preparation time figure into this?

Do you still need the preparation time to avoid the penalties? If so, do you do the preparation, and then afflict, and then do the warp? Or do you afflict, and then take however long a preparation you choose, and then do the warp?

Or do you not need the preparation? I note that Afflict says, "The victim immediately exxperiences the effects of a specific physical or mental advantage." And a little lower it adds, "e.g., Warp immediately teleports the subject." That could be read as saying that you get an immediate Warp, and you disregard the whole business about penalties for instantaneous use, and spending FP, and buying Reliable, and make an unmodified roll, as if you'd taken 30 seconds to prep for Autoteleport.

Though another way to read this is to say that you must apply the Warp instantaneously after doing the Affliction, AND you still suffer the -10 modifer, unless you bought it off with Reliable or by spending massive FP.

What do you think?
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:24 PM   #20
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Default Re: Psionic Powers: Question about a build

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Well, your second example seems to be Autoteleport, as otherwise your friends will go to your home, but you'll still be in the plane. And if it's Autoteleport you don't need to afflict them; you just need to pick them all up before you warp!
The standard Autoteleport would not allow it as it also has Blind Only.

Also there is nothing stopping you from afflicting yourself. So Friend 1, Friend 2, Yourself->3 operations as long as you have enough exoteleport capability to move the heaviest person. But that requires the "blind only" to be removed. The default powers that have blind, you could not teleport home if you did not know how far and in what direction it is and teleporting out of a flying aircraft without knowing where you are and how high you are is kind of dangerous if you have to specify relative location.

The default exoteleport is without range limit so you are really limited by your skill and the mass limit.

Quote:
If you want to avoid that sort of thing, Warp also offers Range Limit, which incidentally makes it cheaper againó-40% for 100 yards, which is a plausible combat range.
The default autoteleport is range limited and has the blind only.

But overall there is a real reason why blind only is -50% and not only the -5 penalty, but also the lower breakage potential as depriving the exact coordinates for the start or end location tends to be easier than enough info to teleport there by the basic warp methods.

But overall the basic abilities as given in psionic powers are not overly broken and big part of that is the blind only.

Quote:
The other question that occurs to me: How does preparation time figure into this?

Do you still need the preparation time to avoid the penalties? If so, do you do the preparation, and then afflict, and then do the warp? Or do you afflict, and then take however long a preparation you choose, and then do the warp?

Or do you not need the preparation? I note that Afflict says, "The victim immediately exxperiences the effects of a specific physical or mental advantage." And a little lower it adds, "e.g., Warp immediately teleports the subject." That could be read as saying that you get an immediate Warp, and you disregard the whole business about penalties for instantaneous use, and spending FP, and buying Reliable, and make an unmodified roll, as if you'd taken 30 seconds to prep for Autoteleport.

Though another way to read this is to say that you must apply the Warp instantaneously after doing the Affliction, AND you still suffer the -10 modifer, unless you bought it off with Reliable or by spending massive FP.

What do you think?
The way I see the warp penalty is that the extra time allows you to refine your travel plans, thus I would allow it before the affliction in this case as you roll only one roll due to the feature.
So "Concentrate for as long as you want on warp-afflict-object warps" and you get the bonus for the concentrate time. If you just fire off the warp then you would indeed get the -10 fir time+10 for the reliable, -5 for blind-range penalties=roll skill at -5-range penalties. A "one second concentrate-afflict-warp" would allow a skill roll at +0-range penalties.

But if your view of how the warp concentrate works is different then it might work differently for you.
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