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Old 05-02-2017, 04:54 PM   #1
Rasna
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
Default Trying to solve the weakness of Low-Tech armor with no modifications on ST damage tab

I know, this topic has already been discussed several times. This is just my way in order to reach the maximum of realism without changing the DR of armor, the ST damage table and the damage bonus of most low-tech weapons. It isn't a "quick and dirty" solution, so it isn't adequate for those who don't like doing much extra math.

The solution isn't nothing new: armor divisors!
The main innovation is the extensive use of different armor divisors based on the type of damage, the form of the weapon and the material of both weapons and armors.

Armor is divided in three main categories: non-metallic armor (bone, cloth, horn, leather, straw, wood), metallic armor (bronze, copper, iron, steel, stone, TL 1-4 reinforced cloth/leather) and hardened steel armor (the latter is distinguished from metallic armor only for impaling and piercing weapons made of hardened steel, which they're more effective against ordinary metal armor but not very much against hardened steel armor).

Weapons behave differently because their form, their material, their balancing and the material of the armor they try to defeat, so a lot of them have a split armor divisor, one against metallic armor and one against non metallic armor. -
- Unbalanced crushing weapons made of metal (maces, pollaxes, flails) and piercing weapons (bec de corbin, ahlspiess, warhammers, bodkin arrows) are the best anti-armor weapons, so they maintain the (1) armor divisor. For their relatively high velocity compared with other low-tech ranged weapons, most single-shot firearms also get (1) armor divisor.
- Impaling weapons are more effective against non-metallic armor: most of them have armor divisor (0.66) against metallic armor, but they maintain the (1) armor divisor against non-metallic armor.
- Unbalanced cutting weapons (swords, khopesh and eplison axes excluded), unbalanced wood or balanced metal crushing weapons and piercing weapons made of soft metal (ex. lead sling bullets) perform a bit worse against armor. They get (0.66).
- Unbalanced swords, like dao and falchion, are more effective than ordinary swords against non metallic armor, but they aren't good as axes against metallic armor. Same thing for impaling weapons with multiple striking points, like the trident. They get (0.5) against metallic armor, but (0.66) against non-metallic armor.
- Broadheaded impaling weapons such leaft-shaped and hunting arrows seems to be more effective against cloth or leather armor, but they're less effective against metallic armor. They get (0.5) against metallic armor, but (1.5) against non-metallic armor.
- Balanced cutting weapons, the flat of blades, balanced wooden crushing weapons, unarmed attacks and stone piercing weapons aren't ideal against any kind of armor. They get (0.5).
- Metal weapons of fine/very fine quality and/or made of hardened steel improve their armor divisor against non-metallic armor (cutting attacks), or both metallic and non-metallic weapons (impaling and piercing attacks), but not against hardened steel armor.
- Low-tech materials (bone, obsidian, stone, fire-hardened or unhardened wood) generally perform significantly worse against armor, especially for cutting and impaling weapons.

Here is the table.

= non-metallic armor
˟ = metallic armor
˟˟ = hardened steel armor

(1˟˟)/(1.5˟)/(1.5)
- pi (hardened steel weapons and ammo)

(1)
- cr (unbalanced metal/stone weapons)
- pi (single-shot firearms | weapons and ammo made of hard metal: bronze, iron, steel...)

(0.66˟˟)/(1˟)/(1.5)
- imp (hardened steel weapons)

(0.66˟)/(1)
- cut (fine/very fine quality unbalanced metal weapons)
- imp (metal weapons)

(0.66)
- cr (balanced metal/stone weapons | unbalanced bone/wood weapons)
- cut (unbalanced metal weapons, swords excluded)
- pi (weapons and ammo made of soft metal: copper, lead, silver...)

(0.5˟˟)/(0.66˟)/(2)
- imp (broadhead hardened steel weapons and ammo)

(0.5˟˟)/(0.66˟)/(1)
- imp (hardened steel weapons with multiple heads)

(0.5˟)/(1.5)
- imp (broadhead metal weapons and ammo)

(0.5˟)/(1)
- cut (fine/very fine quality unbalanced metal swords)

(0.5˟)/(0.66)
- cut (unbalanced metal swords | fine/very fine quality balanced metal weapons)
- imp (metal weapons with multiple heads | fire-hardened wood/stone weapons)

(0.5)
- cr (balanced bone/wood weapons | flat of blades | unarmed attacks)
- cut (balanced metal weapons | unbalanced bone/obsidian/stone weapons)
- pi (ceramic/stone weapons and ammo)

(0.33˟)/(1)
- imp (broadhead stone weapons and ammo)

(0.33˟)/(0.5)
- imp (fire-hardened wood/stone weapons with multiple heads | bone/obsidian/unhardened wood weapons)

(0.33)
- cut (balanced bone/obsidian/stone weapons)

(0.25˟)/(0.66)
- imp (broadhead bone/obsidian weapons and ammo)

(0.25˟)/(0.33)
- imp (bone/obsidian/unhardened wood weapons with multiple heads)

SOME EXAMPLES

Thrusting Broadsword: sw+1 (0.5) cut || thr+2 (0.66˟)/(1) imp
Thrusting Broadsword, fine quality: sw+2 (0.5˟)/(0.66) cut || thr+3 (0.66˟)/(1) imp
Small Axe: sw+1 (0.66) cut
Small Axe, fine quality: sw+2 (0.66˟)/(1) cut
Small Mace: sw+2 (1) cr
Longbow, war arrow: 1d+1 (0.66˟)/(1) imp
Longbow, broadhead arrow: 1d+1 (0.5˟)/(1.5) imp
Longbow, bodkin arrow: 1d+1 (1) pi+
Longbow, hardened steel bodkin arrow: 1d+1 (1˟˟)/(1.5˟)/(1.5) pi+
Large Falchion: sw+2 (0.5˟)/(0.66) cut || thr+1 (0.66˟)/(1) imp
Spear: thr+2 (0.66˟)/(1) imp || thr+3 (0.66˟)/(1) imp
Spear, stone: thr+2 (0.5˟)/(0.66) imp || thr+3 (0.5˟)/(0.66) imp
Sling, lead bullets: sw (0.66) pi
Sling, stone bullets: sw (0.5) pi

Last edited by Rasna; 05-03-2017 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:17 PM   #2
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Trying to solve the weakness of Low-Tech armor with no modifications on ST damage

Any solution where step 1 is "reject the solution to the problem" is going to fail.
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:28 PM   #3
Rasna
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
Default Re: Trying to solve the weakness of Low-Tech armor with no modifications on ST damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Any solution where step 1 is "reject the solution to the problem" is going to fail.
I know that's far away from being appealing for the average GURPS player, but if you're a math-masochist then it could work well. Like this http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=2794.
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:51 PM   #4
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Trying to solve the weakness of Low-Tech armor with no modifications on ST damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
I know that's far away from being appealing for the average GURPS player, but if you're a math-masochist then it could work well.
No, really, it can't. There is no solution to the strength damage chart being nonsensical other than changing the strength damage chart.
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:53 PM   #5
mr beer
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: Trying to solve the weakness of Low-Tech armor with no modifications on ST damage

Sounds good for a highly detailed, strictly gladiatorial game, something like this week it's "Ninja vs. Pirate". Well, that was great folks, next week it's "Aztec vs. Viking!".

However it sounds unbelievably tedious for most campaigns.

That said, I kind of like the idea of a weekly versus game now, so YMMV.
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:47 PM   #6
fredtheobviouspseudonym
 
Join Date: May 2007
Default Easier way -- suggestion

Just double the DR of any metal armor against muscle-powered attacks --

includes all hand weapons &
bows, crossbows, etc.

You could argue for including bone or wood armor in this mix.

Of course, this will make combats longer . . . much longer.
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:16 PM   #7
Purple Haze
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: Trying to solve the weakness of Low-Tech armor with no modifications on ST damage

Far easier solution: subtract 2 from the min ST of every weapon (so that they can actually be wielded by those who historically wielded them), subtract 20-30 CP from the amount you give PC's (so that they can not afford to take high ST just for giggles). Problem solved.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:08 PM   #8
Rasna
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
Default Re: Trying to solve the weakness of Low-Tech armor with no modifications on ST damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym View Post
Just double the DR of any metal armor against muscle-powered attacks --

includes all hand weapons &
bows, crossbows, etc.

You could argue for including bone or wood armor in this mix.

Of course, this will make combats longer . . . much longer.
Doubling DR against all kinds of attacks doesn't work well except for swords and wooden crushing weapons. DR 8/4* Fine Mail is invulnerable or near-invulnerable to longbow and reflex composite bow arrows, picks and axes, which it isn't realistic. DR 12 Medium Plate will made the wearer invulnerable even to heavy maces or pollaxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Haze View Post
Far easier solution: subtract 2 from the min ST of every weapon (so that they can actually be wielded by those who historically wielded them), subtract 20-30 CP from the amount you give PC's (so that they can not afford to take high ST just for giggles). Problem solved.
It doesn't work either. A ST 10 man with a broadsword is still capable to inflict one damage against Medium Plate. And this isn't realistic, even in form of blunt trauma damage.
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Old 05-04-2017, 07:23 AM   #9
Rabenrecht
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Default Re: Trying to solve the weakness of Low-Tech armor with no modifications on ST damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
It doesn't work either. A ST 10 man with a broadsword is still capable to inflict one damage against Medium Plate. And this isn't realistic, even in form of blunt trauma damage.
You are somehow implying that a ST 10 creature with a broadsword should deal no damage against someone wearing medium plate.

If so, what is the Basis for this assertion?
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:12 AM   #10
Rasna
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
Default Re: Trying to solve the weakness of Low-Tech armor with no modifications on ST damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabenrecht View Post
You are somehow implying that a ST 10 creature with a broadsword should deal no damage against someone wearing medium plate.

If so, what is the Basis for this assertion?
Physics.

If you manage to bend a 2mm thick good quality breastplate with a broadsword you're a superhero, not a human.
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