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Old 04-29-2017, 11:35 AM   #31
Tuk the Weekah
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Ladder View Post
TL0
Neanderthal Hunter
ST: 13 HP: 13 Speed: 5.50
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 5
IQ: 10 Per: 11
HT: 11 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 8 Parry: 9 DR: 1* (See notes)
Weapons (12): Axe (2d+1(0.5) cutting), Light Club (2d crushing), or Spear (One hand 1d+3(0.5) impaling or two hands 1d+4(0.5) impaling).
Traits: Dislikes Strangers, Dislikes large groups, Distinctive features: Neanderthal brow, Dull, Damage Resistance 1 (Skull Only), Feature: Temperature comfort zone is much lower than ordinary humans, the zone is somewhere around 25* to 80*.
Skills: Either Axe/Mace-12, Broadsword-12, or Spear-12. Area Knowledge-10; Armoury (melee or ranged weapons)-10; Camouflage-11; Machinist-10; Naturalist-11; Navigation-10; Stealth-11; Survival-11; Tracking-11.
Notes: The hunter only has one weapon, choose between an Axe, Light Club, or Spear. Axes and Spears are made of stone (p. B275). Neanderthals have an additional 1 DR on the skull.
Noteable gear includes: Fur Loincloth and Tunic (covering groin and torso), $35, 2 lbs. Personal Basics, $5, 1 lb. Sleeping Fur, $50, 8 lbs. And their weapon of choice.
I'd not include Dull if you're looking at a realistic representation. There's zero evidence that Neanderthals were in any way mentally deficient when compared to modern humans.

Here's an interesting thought, however; Neanderthal males were highly asymmetrical in their upper bodies, with up to 50% asymmetry between right (bigger) and left (smaller) sides. Modern humans are typically 4-13% asymmetrical. (I am one of the 'most right-handed people' my physio has ever met, according to her; and I barely tip the scales at 9% asymmetry.) It's theorized that this could be a muscle specialization--left hand for delicate tasks, right hand for brute strength tasks--but the simpler explanation to my mind is the theory that it is an artifact of constant use of the one-handed scrapers that are the iconic Neanderthal tool find. Female Neanderthals also show signs of right-handed asymmetry; but the small sample sizes for females makes it difficult to be certain if this is reflective or an accident of sampling.

This asymmetry would suggest that they scraped right-handedly, and used swinging weapons right-handedly, but used thrusting weapons left-handedly. The asymmetry would suggest that they get a base ST 11, but add several levels of (3pt) Arm Strength (right side only). The lack of symmetry would also suggest that they would not get the Off Hand Weapon Training perk or skill, as it suggests being equally proficient with both hands, which would be clearly inaccurate, given that high a level of asymmetry.

Oh, and the fact that their right-handedness is even more prevalent than in humans suggest that they were a highly co-operative society.

I do not understand the rationale behind the one-weapon rule; it seems irrational. A hunter would carry a scraping tool, a knife, and some type of bush tool (a hand axe, for instance). Once you've killed the animal, you have to bleed it, then butcher it. Even if you don't use fire, you'll still need to clear brush for a shelter.
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:36 AM   #32
Rasna
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
I see what your objection is. I handle the ST damage armor penetration problem differently, mostly by giving various armor divisors to muscle powered weapons (1, 1/2, or 1/3 depending on the weapon type) since RAW armor penetration at ST 10 is still too high in many cases. It seems to solve that pretty well. I have less problem with the scaling of wounding, fixing that is too much of a departure from RAW to me and I have no problem with the progression of thr damage, just its starting penetration.
Do you apply an armor divisor (0.5) for sw attacks of swords, unarmed attacks, staffs, batons and other weapons made of wood or without a small surface area of impact (axe blades, flanges, etc.)?
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Old 04-29-2017, 12:08 PM   #33
ericthered
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Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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Originally Posted by Purple Haze View Post
Velites ceased to exist by the end of the Samnite wars. Before the introduction of the gladius and pilum and the organization of stereotypical legions in the mid-republican period.

They realized the folly of not having skirmisher during the second Punic war, and rushed out to hire Cretan archers and Balearic slingers.
Looked into it. Velites certainly lasted longer than the Samnite wars, as they are described in official sources as fighting in the Punic wars. According to the wikipedia article on them, they were disbanded in the Marian reforms, and the start of the late republic, which sounds fairly plausible. That's also after the roman conquest of Greece (including Sparta).
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Old 04-29-2017, 03:35 PM   #34
phayman53
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
Do you apply an armor divisor (0.5) for sw attacks of swords, unarmed attacks, staffs, batons and other weapons made of wood or without a small surface area of impact (axe blades, flanges, etc.)?
Basically unbalanced cr weapons and all pi weapons are (1), balanced cr, unbalaced cut, and all imp weapons are (1/2), and balanced cut are (1/3).
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Old 04-29-2017, 04:15 PM   #35
phayman53
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
Basically unbalanced cr weapons and all pi weapons are (1), balanced cr, unbalaced cut, and all imp weapons are (1/2), and balanced cut are (1/3).
There are some exceptions to this general rule and I expand the blunt trauma through armor rules because that becomes important. I have playtested it with six newbees and it worked well--it encoraged thrusting through light armor instead of swinging, even by a ST16 character.

I will probably post a full house rule write-up soon.

Last edited by phayman53; 04-29-2017 at 06:55 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 04-29-2017, 09:16 PM   #36
mikeejimbo
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

Shouldn't the Legionnaire have Thrown Weapon (Spear)-13 listed in skills for the pilum? I see the pilum was written up in the brief table of the weapons/skills/damage and the equipment.
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Old 04-30-2017, 11:18 AM   #37
Rasna
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
Basically unbalanced cr weapons and all pi weapons are (1), balanced cr, unbalaced cut, and all imp weapons are (1/2), and balanced cut are (1/3).
I'll try a mediated version of this: armor divisor (0.66) [+50% DR] for balanced cr weapons, unbalanced cut weapons, imp weapons and slings with lead bullets, armor divisor (0.5) for balanced cut weapons and slings with stone or terracotta bullets.

Last edited by Rasna; 04-30-2017 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 04-30-2017, 02:37 PM   #38
phayman53
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
I'll try a compromised version of this: armor divisor (0.66) [+50% DR] for balanced cr weapons, unbalanced cut weapons, imp weapons and slings with lead bullets, armor divisor (0.5) for balanced cut weapons and slings with stone or terracotta bullets.
The problem with this is that you are still getting one handed swords from a ST 10 guy able to cut through light mail and medium gamberson 1/6 times, which just doesn't seem realistic. You also get a ST11 guy thrusting through the same armor on average with the same weapon (unless you round the (.66) up, then it is 1/3 of the time). Light mail voiders and medium gamberson performs better than this in testing, even the cheaply built modern stuff.
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Old 04-30-2017, 02:46 PM   #39
fredtheobviouspseudonym
 
Join Date: May 2007
Default Suggestion -- generic medieval mercenary

Perhaps a variation on the man at arms -- but IIRC in the late medieval era lots of troops, horse & foot, were mercs.

Also the guards of many a castle (and presumably PCs will be venturing into castles at times) were mercenaries.
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Old 04-30-2017, 04:28 PM   #40
Rasna
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
The problem with this is that you are still getting one handed swords from a ST 10 guy able to cut through light mail and medium gamberson 1/6 times, which just doesn't seem realistic. You also get a ST11 guy thrusting through the same armor on average with the same weapon (unless you round the (.66) up, then it is 1/3 of the time). Light mail voiders and medium gamberson performs better than this in testing, even the cheaply built modern stuff.
Not if you combine this with the "Blunt Trauma and Edged Weapons" rule (Low Tech, p. 102): against Light Mail, a ST 10 man with a broadsword (1d+1 cut) could only inflict one point of crushing damage if he rolls 6.
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