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Old 04-28-2017, 05:28 PM   #21
Purple Haze
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

Sparta went down to early imperial Roman legions, not big users of skirmishers either.
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Old 04-29-2017, 08:14 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by A Ladder View Post
Man, I could have sworn I read about legionnaire archers/slingers. I guess I'll split them up into Legionnaire and Auxillia.
Vegetius says something about legionaries being required to train with slings.
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Old 04-29-2017, 08:16 AM   #23
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I don't think the spartans were big on peltasts. IIRC, that was one of the ways they were finally defeated.
There was one battle where they were defeated by peltasts but it was specifically because they were without their own skirmishers on that occasion. Usually the Spartans used peltasts and psiloi just like everyone else.
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Old 04-29-2017, 08:22 AM   #24
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Hoplites seem to have gone from heavier armor to less over the course of the classical period, increasingly relying on their shield. Even during the Persian Wars they mostly would have been wearing textile armor on their torso.
The problem with this argument is that textile armour weighs more than bronze armour. The whole point of going to the trouble and expense of using metal to make armour is that it weighs less than any other available material. We know that the Greeks moved away from metal armour in favour of leather and textiles but it wasn't to reduce weight.
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Old 04-29-2017, 08:35 AM   #25
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Sparta went down to early imperial Roman legions, not big users of skirmishers either.
By the time they faced the legions they were long past their prime. Besides, the triplex acies system was just superior to the phalanxes used by the Spartans.
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Old 04-29-2017, 08:52 AM   #26
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I disagree that ST12 is too high for an average Legionnaire or Spartan soldier. You are talking about two types of professional soldiers in an era that specifically required strength as key to weapon use. While I am less familiar with the specific Spartan training methods (it has been a while since I read about them, so the details are a bit foggy), I do know that they were intense and started at a young age. As for the Legionnaires, we know they specifically trained both strength and endurance intensively. ST12 is not that ridiculous, I was at least ST12 as a football player in High School judging by the lifting definitions of GURPS ST, and that was in explosive, fast lifts.
They're surely well trained, but the average size of most ancient Mediterraneans wasn't much impressive. Anyway, the main problem isn't the BL, but the ST-based damage table. According to the table, a ST 13 Neanderthal with a light club is capable to smash through plate armor (2d crushing)! That's why I'd prefer to assign them ST 10-11 with one or two points of Lifting ST.

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Old 04-29-2017, 08:57 AM   #27
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Sparta went down to early imperial Roman legions, not big users of skirmishers either.
Huh? The Romans were extensive users of skirmishers. They called the troops Velites and they weren't even auxiliaries: they were part of the legion proper. They needed them because the purpose of the roman cavalry was to distract other people's cavalry while the infantry did all the real work. When that's who you have for Calvary, you need good skirmishers. Or at least decent ones, and the Romans had them.
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Old 04-29-2017, 10:58 AM   #28
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Velites ceased to exist by the end of the Samnite wars. Before the introduction of the gladius and pilum and the organization of stereotypical legions in the mid-republican period.

They realized the folly of not having skirmisher during the second Punic war, and rushed out to hire Cretan archers and Balearic slingers.
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:08 AM   #29
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The problem with this argument is that textile armour weighs more than bronze armour. The whole point of going to the trouble and expense of using metal to make armour is that it weighs less than any other available material. We know that the Greeks moved away from metal armour in favour of leather and textiles but it wasn't to reduce weight.
I wasn't really referring weight, rather heavy as in heavily protected (poor choice of words). They were opting for less protective armor or no torso armor at all, regardless of the weight. I imagine this most likely had to do with cost, more hoplites could serve if they didn't have to buy such expensive armor. My point was bronze torso armor was mostly abandoned for less protective torso armor or none all.
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:18 AM   #30
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They're surely well trained, but the average size of most ancient Mediterraneans wasn't much impressive. Anyway, the main problem isn't the BL, but the ST-based damage table. According to the table, a ST 13 Neanderthal with a light club is capable to smash through plate armor (2d crushing)! That's why I'd prefer to assign them ST 10-11 with one or two points of Lifting ST.
I see what your objection is. I handle the ST damage armor penetration problem differently, mostly by giving various armor divisors to muscle powered weapons (1, 1/2, or 1/3 depending on the weapon type) since RAW armor penetration at ST 10 is still too high in many cases. It seems to solve that pretty well. I have less problem with the scaling of wounding, fixing that is too much of a departure from RAW to me and I have no problem with the progression of thr damage, just its starting penetration.

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