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Old 04-27-2017, 12:20 PM   #11
phayman53
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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Originally Posted by A Ladder View Post
Spartan Warrior
ST: 13 HP: 13 Speed: 5.75
DX: 12 Will: 11 Move: 3*
IQ: 10 Per: 11
HT: 11 FP: 11 SM: 0
Dodge: 7*+3 Parry/Block: 11+3 DR: 5 (see notes)
Spear (15): 1d+2 impaling.
Shortsword (14): 2d-1 cutting or 1d impaling.
Punch (14): 1d+1 crushing.
Kick (12): 1d+2 crushing.
Traits: Combat Reflexes, Fearlessness 1, Fit, High Pain Threshold, Shield-Wall Training.
Skills: Hiking-13, Karate-14, Running-13, Shield-14, Shortsword-14, Soldier-14, Spear-15, Stealth-12, Survival-12, Wrestling-14. Leaders will have Strategy-12 and Tactics-12.
Notes: Move and dodge reduced from encumbrance. Makes HT rolls at 12, due to Fit. The Spartan only has DR 5 on their torso, DR 3 on their skull, face, arms, and legs. The skills in Karate and Wrestling represent training in pankration.
Noteable gear includes: Bronze Armbands $180, 9 lbs; Bronze Cuirass (Lorica Segmentata stats) $680, 26 lbs; Bronze Greaves $270, 17 lbs; Bronze Helmet $160, 7.5 lbs; Shortsword $400, 2 lbs; Spear $40, 4 lbs; Large Shield $90, 25 lbs.

Classical Hoplite
ST: 11 HP: 11 Speed: 5.00
DX: 10 Will: 10 Move: 4*
IQ: 10 Per: 10
HT: 10 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 7*+2 Parry/Block: 9+2 DR: 1* (see notes)
Spear (12): 1d+1 impaling.
Shortsword (11): 1d+1 cutting or 1d-1 impaling.
Traits: Advantages and/or Disadvantages
Skills: Shield-12, Shortsword-11, Soldier-12, Spear-12.
Notes: Move and dodge reduced from encumbrance. The Hoplite only has DR 1* on their torso from their linothorax armor, they have DR 3 on their skull and face.
Noteable gear includes: Bronze Helmet skull/face $160, 7.5 lbs; Cloth Armor $30, 6 lbs; Medium Shield $60, 15 lbs; Shortsword $400, 2 lbs; Spear $40, 4 lbs.

Viking Raider
ST: 11 HP: 11 Speed: 5.25
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 5
IQ: 10 Per: 10
HT: 10 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 8*+2 Parry/Block: 9+2 DR: 4/2
Weapons (13): Axe (1d+3 cutting), Broadsword (1d+2 cutting or 1d+1 impaling), or Spear (1d+1 impaling (one hand) or 1d+2 impaling (two hands)).
Bow (12): 1d+1 impaling.
Knife (12): 1d-1 cutting or 1d-1 impaling.
Traits: Fit.
Skills: Axe/Mace-13, Broadsword-13, or Spear-13, Boating-12, Bow-12, Knife-12, Navigation-12, Seamanship-12, Shield-12, Swimming-11, Wrestling-11.
Notes: Move and dodge reduced from encumbrance. Makes HT rolls at 11, due to Fit. The viking raider only has DR 4/2 on their torso and groin, and DR 4 on their skull. Only half of any group of viking raiders carry bows.
Noteable gear includes: Axe $50, 4 lbs or Spear $40, 4lbs; Large Knife $40, 1 lb; Longbow $200, 3 lbs; Mail Hauberk $230, 25 lbs; Medium Shield $60, 15 lbs; Pot Helm $100, 5 lbs; a Hip Quiver $15, 1 lb; holding 20 arrows $40, 2 lbs.
Wealthy vikings will be equipped with a Thrusting Broadsword instead of an Axe, $600, 3 lbs.
Spartan Warriors in the era of the Peloponnesian War (and probably would not have worn bronze torso armor, and often no torso armor at all). Hoplites seem to have gone from heavier armor to less over the course of the classical period, increasingly relying on their shield. Even during the Persian Wars they mostly would have been wearing textile armor on their torso.

Viking Raiders would only rarely wear torso armor. It would have been mail armor, but the vast majority wore only regular clothing (though they may have worn textile armor, there just is no surviving evidence of it).
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Old 04-27-2017, 03:39 PM   #12
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Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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Originally Posted by A Ladder View Post
From what I gathered in my research (though admittedly not very thorough) was that the elite guard were limited to the Garde du corps, Gardes suisses, and the dragoons (the cavalry branch). This left the rest of the musketeers of the guard open to the lower class (and to what I could tell) not the best fighters. I will note that I don't actually know what I'm talking about, just what I picked up in reading about them.
It looks like I will need to add a Garde du Corps as an elite version (ST 11, DX 11) and give them riding. Though missing the soldier skill is a glaring oversight. I'll go back and add that and update with fast draw ammo.

Did the musketeers that were cavalry use a specific mounted weapon, or just stick to their muskets?

I did see that the Swiss Pikemen were rather fierce-some, I'll go and add a Man at Arms to cover them.
I'd completely separate the musketeers of the guard from classic musketeers: the royal guard is a bunch of (ambitious) young nobles getting safe military service before moving onto better things, like captainships. They may receive nominal or even good training with the musket, but their main training is that of the nobility of the time: fencing and horseback riding are a result of the segment of the population from which they are drawn, not of any military drill.

Cavalry that uses ball and shot is not considered a musketeer, but pistol cavalry (and proper cavalry). Dragoons are troops that dismount to fight: any soldier called a musketeer that rode a horse into battle would be a dragoon. Its like the difference between an armor column and mechanized infantry.

Most Musket troops of the age (and everyone used them, not just the french -- the Spanish and Swedish were renowned for their musket troops) would not know how to ride, and their sword play would be quite indifferent, but they would actually treat the musket as their primary weapon, unlike the king's guard.

I hope this helps.

Also, Men at arms and swiss pike are very different.

It appears I'm opinionated enough I should just put up writeups myself!
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Old 04-28-2017, 05:43 AM   #13
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Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
Viking Raiders would only rarely wear torso armor. It would have been mail armor, but the vast majority wore only regular clothing (though they may have worn textile armor, there just is no surviving evidence of it).
In our surviving oldest laws, it is specified what kind of armaments were required to be part of the levy - helmet, shield and a weapon (typically spear or axe). As you say, torso armor was not specified and was probably rare.
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Old 04-28-2017, 07:22 AM   #14
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Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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In our surviving oldest laws, it is specified what kind of armaments were required to be part of the levy - helmet, shield and a weapon (typically spear or axe). As you say, torso armor was not specified and was probably rare.
I've heard it argued that such armor would be much more common in the front rank compared to the back ranks.
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Old 04-28-2017, 08:32 AM   #15
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Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

Update based on all your guys' suggestions, thanks!

Caveman Hunter
ST: 11 HP: 11 Speed: 5.50
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 5
IQ: 10 Per: 11
HT: 11 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 8 Parry: 9 DR: 1*
Spear (12): One hand 1d+1(0.5) impaling or two hands 1d+2(0.5) impaling.
Thrown Spear (12+2): 1d+2(0.5) impaling, Range 11/16, Shots T(1), Bulk -6.
Traits: Duty to their Tribe.
Skills: Area Knowledge-10; Armoury (melee or ranged weapons)-10; Camouflage-11; Machinist-10; Naturalist-11; Navigation-10; Spear-12, Stealth-11; Survival-11; Thrown Weapon (Spear)-12, Tracking-11.
Class: Mundane.
Notes: Spears are made of stone (p. B275).
Notable gear includes: Fur Loincloth and Tunic (covering groin and torso), $35, 2 lbs. Personal Basics, $5, 1 lb. Sleeping Fur, $50, 8 lbs, Spear $40, 4lbs.

Early Imperial Roman Legionnaire
ST: 12 HP: 11 Speed: 5.50
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 3*
IQ: 10 Per: 10
HT: 11 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 6*+3 Parry/Block: 9+3 DR: 5 (see notes)
Shortsword, Gladius (13): 1d+2 cutting or 1d-1 impaling.
Javelin, Pilum (13): 1d impaling.
Dagger, Pugio (12): 1d-2 impaling.
Traits: Fit. Shield-Wall Training.
Skills: Brawling-11, Hiking-12, Knife-12, Shield-13, Shortsword-13, Soldier-12, Thrown Weapon (Spear)-13, Wrestling-11. Centurions will have Leadership-11, Strategy-11, Tactics-11, and Teaching-10.
Class: Mundane.
Notes: Move and dodge reduced from encumbrance. Makes HT rolls at 12, due to Fit. The legionnaire only has DR 5 on their torso, DR 4 on their skull and face, and DR 2 on their feet.
Notable gear includes: Boots $80, 3 lbs; Gladius $400, 2 lbs; Legionary Helmet $150, 6 lbs; Lorica Segmentata $680, 26 lbs; Pilum, $30, 2 lbs; Pugio $20, 0.25 lbs; Scutum $90, 25 lbs.

Roman Auxilia, Sagittarii
ST: 11 HP: 11 Speed: 5.25
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 4*
IQ: 10 Per: 10
HT: 10 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 7* Parry: n/a DR: 4/2 (see notes)
Composite Bow, Arcum (13): 1d+2 impaling.
Traits: Fit.
Skills: Bow-13, Hiking-12, Soldier-12.
Class: Mundane.
Notes: Move and dodge reduced from encumbrance. Makes HT rolls at 11, due to Fit. Sagittarii only have DR 4/2 on their groin and torso, and DR 3 on their skull.
Notable gear includes: Arcum $900, 4 lbs; Bronze Pot-Helm $160, 7.5 lbs; Hip Quiver $15, 1 lb; holding 20 arrows $40, 2 lbs; and Mail Hauberk $230, 25 lbs.

Roman Auxilia, Funditores
ST: 11 HP: 11 Speed: 5.25
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 5
IQ: 10 Per: 10
HT: 10 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 8 Parry: n/a DR: 0
Sling, Funda (13): 1d+2 piercing.
Traits: Fit.
Skills: Hiking-12, Sling-13, Soldier-12.
Class: Mundane.
Notes: Makes HT rolls at 11, due to Fit. Notable gear includes: Funda $20, 0.5 lbs, and use lead bullets (p. B276) carrying 20 of them in a pouch $10, 1 lb.

Viking Raider
ST: 11 HP: 11 Speed: 5.25
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 5
IQ: 10 Per: 10
HT: 10 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 8+2 Parry/Block: 9+2 DR: 0 (see notes)
Weapons (13): Axe (1d+3 cutting), Broadsword (1d+2 cutting or 1d+1 impaling), or Spear (1d+1 impaling (one hand) or 1d+2 impaling (two hands)).
Bow (12): 1d+1 impaling.
Knife (12): 1d-1 cutting or 1d-1 impaling.
Traits: Fit.
Skills: Axe/Mace-13, Broadsword-13, or Spear-13, Boating-12, Bow-12, Knife-12, Navigation-12, Seamanship-12, Shield-12, Swimming-11, Wrestling-11.
Class: Mundane.
Notes: Makes HT rolls at 11, due to Fit. The Viking raider only has DR 4 on their skull. Only half of any group of Viking raiders carry bows. Wealthy Vikings will be equipped with either Cloth Armor ($30, 6 lbs) or a Mail Hauberk ($230, 25 lbs) and Thrusting Broadsword ($600, 3 lbs) instead of an Axe. Additional armor reduces move and dodge by 1.
Notable gear includes: Axe $50, 4 lbs or Spear $40, 4lbs. Large Knife $40, 1 lb; Longbow $200, 3 lbs; Medium Shield $60, 15 lbs; Pot Helm $100, 5 lbs; a Hip Quiver $15, 1 lb; holding 20 arrows $40, 2 lbs.

Dragoon Musketeer.
ST: 11 HP: 11 Speed: 5.00
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 4*
IQ: 10 Per: 10
HT: 10 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 7* Parry: 9 DR: 4 (skull only)
Melee Weapon (11): Rapier (1d impaling), Saber (1d cutting or 1d impaling), or Spear (1d+2 impaling).
Musket (13): 4d pi++.
Pistol (12): Shot (2d-1 pi+)
Traits: None.
Skills: Fast-Draw (Ammo)-13, Guns (musket)-13, Guns (Pistol)-12, Riding-13, Soldier-12. One of Rapier-11, Saber-11, or Spear-11.
Class:
Notes: Move and dodge reduced from encumbrance while on foot.
Notable gear includes: Boots $80, 3 lbs; Flintlock Pistol $200, 3 lbs; Matchlock Musket $150, 20 lbs; Pot-Helm $100, 5 lbs. One of Rapier $500, 2.75 lbs, Saber $700, 2 lbs, or Spear $40, 4 lbs.



Change log: Reduced cavemen hunter to just a spear
Roman legionnaire split into Auxilia (archer and slinger)
Viking Raider removed armor, option for wealthier vikings
Musketeer changed to a Dragoon, updated.
(Not shown) updated spears on Spartan and Hoplite to the Long Spear.
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Last edited by A Ladder; 05-01-2017 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 04-28-2017, 10:12 AM   #16
Rasna
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

I think Ability at DX+2 for primary skills should qualify for soldiers with good training but without much experience. Veterans should have their primary weapon skill at DX+3 or even DX+4 for elite corps like English Bowmen and Varangian Guards. Skill at DX+5 or DX+6 only for very hardened veterans and weapon masters.

ST 12-13 as average for Spartans and Legionnaires seems too high. The average soldier would have ST 10-11 with +1 or +2 Lifting ST.
ST 12 is more appropriate for units like Doppelsoldners, Varangians, Grenadiers and Cuirassiers.

Last edited by Rasna; 04-28-2017 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 04-28-2017, 12:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

Your hoplites and Spartans need psiloi (skirmishers) too. Bow or sling are fine, peltasts (javelins and a distinctive crescent shaped shield) are iconic.
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Old 04-28-2017, 01:52 PM   #18
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Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I've heard it argued that such armor would be much more common in the front rank compared to the back ranks.
Some ancient and medieval sources talk about that, but remember that there might be 3 byrnies among the 50 men in a longship! So "much more common" is relative.

We don't have much evidence on the exact numbers, but even in days with much more specialization and better tools and economies of scale, mail was terribly expensive.
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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I think Ability at DX+2 for primary skills should qualify for soldiers with good training but without much experience. Veterans should have their primary weapon skill at DX+3 or even DX+4 for elite corps like English Bowmen and Varangian Guards. Skill at DX+5 or DX+6 only for very hardened veterans and weapon masters.

ST 12-13 as average for Spartans and Legionnaires seems too high. The average soldier would have ST 10-11 with +1 or +2 Lifting ST.
ST 12 is more appropriate for units like Doppelsoldners, Varangians, Grenadiers and Cuirassiers.
I disagree that ST12 is too high for an average Legionnaire or Spartan soldier. You are talking about two types of professional soldiers in an era that specifically required strength as key to weapon use. While I am less familiar with the specific Spartan training methods (it has been a while since I read about them, so the details are a bit foggy), I do know that they were intense and started at a young age. As for the Legionnaires, we know they specifically trained both strength and endurance intensively. ST12 is not that ridiculous, I was at least ST12 as a football player in High School judging by the lifting definitions of GURPS ST, and that was in explosive, fast lifts.
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Old 04-28-2017, 03:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: [Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

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Originally Posted by Purple Haze View Post
Your hoplites and Spartans need psiloi (skirmishers) too. Bow or sling are fine, peltasts (javelins and a distinctive crescent shaped shield) are iconic.
I don't think the spartans were big on peltasts. IIRC, that was one of the ways they were finally defeated.
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