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Old 04-23-2017, 07:01 AM   #11
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Time to learn familiarities

"You specified familiarities with hammers and nailguns when you created your character (conveniently written on a scrap of notepaper and stapled to your character sheet). That means you're at -2 for using the saw."

Sorry, I should be clear -- I'm not arguing against any of the proposals here in particular. I'm venting about my complete hatred for the Familiarity rules. I'll refrain now.
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Old 04-23-2017, 03:33 PM   #12
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Time to learn familiarities

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I'm not sure it's quite that good.
Dude, you took a short section and turned it into something more without changing the flavor. 'Sides, you know I don't give compliments if I don't mean then. It IS worth a deeper look though - that's gonna have to wait a day or two though.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:35 AM   #13
johndallman
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Time to learn familiarities

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
For maintenance, take cost, divide by $1000 and round up. That gives us a number with a range between 1 and a few thousand.
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Originally Posted by Daigoro View Post
I can see TL having some effect, but it would be a complicated interaction. Vehicles would be more complex for the same size but different TL, but then technology-aided learning would bring the time back down again.
That $1000 divisor should be TL-dependent in some way. To be figured out when I'm more awake.
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:02 AM   #14
Culture20
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Time to learn familiarities

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
"Sure, you have Carpentry skill, but you have never used a Stanley hammer so you're at -2 to drive the nail."
Concur. Repair skills involve learning how to use the available tools for the TL. As a GM, I might consider allowing a perk like weapon bond for "your tools", but an unfamiliar tool for repair/craft/art skills is usually represented as existing in a new TL (digital camera versus film), and that's a different set of skill penalties.

Now familiarity for the thing being repaired... would that be better as a technique? You know how to repair TL8 cars, but you know the part numbers of every screw in your souped up 'vette.
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:24 AM   #15
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Time to learn familiarities

Most of the times, you offset familiarities penalties by taking extra-time.

It sound ridiculous when comparing 2 brands of hammer, but think about the days/weeks of slower work when switching from MsOffice 2003 to MsOffice 2016, or the months needed to fully master a new complex machinery such as a printing press... Even switching between similar paintbrushes, cameras or cooking pans will require a small adaptation time.
Same with repair : someone who repaired hundreds of a specific model will be much faster working on it than a close variant.
The familiarity rules are another of the 'one-size-fit-all' modifier that are too harsh in some cases and too lenient in others but provide a workable approximation.
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:53 AM   #16
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Time to learn familiarities

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
"Sure, you have Carpentry skill, but you have never used a Stanley hammer so you're at -2 to drive the nail."
Carpentry is not a "skill used to operate equipment"; familiarities do not apply. Familiarities also apply to equipment being operated upon, but that doesn't apply to Carpentry either. You don't need to be familiar with the model of bookshelf you're building.
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:24 AM   #17
Flyndaran
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Default Re: [Basic] Time to learn familiarities

Proof you're a beaver... since you can perform carpentry with just your hands and teeth.
I took a shop class as a kid, and I don't think any of those tools are inconsequentially simple or idiot-proof. At least with regards to safety rules.
Using a hammer quickly is not a literally unskilled act.
Practiced repetition makes it MUCH faster, so that "duh anyone can use a hammer" is really using extra time to perform a simple job as well as someone with greater experience.
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Old 04-26-2017, 12:01 PM   #18
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Time to learn familiarities

Even more basic than that: familiarities are for skills whose central object is the use or repair of technology, not those skills in which the use of technology brings about the central object.

In Carpentry, the central object is the creation of something made of wood, not the use of tools.
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Old 04-26-2017, 12:19 PM   #19
Flyndaran
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Default Re: [Basic] Time to learn familiarities

I believe weapons have loads of familiarities, and they're used more for disassembling than repair. ;)

I think one big issue is that Familiarities are like Fright Checks, very important for setting up the style, world rules, and details of character history.

It's also like previous threads on Mechanic tool sets. Realistically, they should be specific to not just TL, and skill, but also specific brand with one use items similar to real First Aid kits.
But that may feel overly restrictive to many gamers and GMs.

"Meh, close enough" probably fits Familiarities more than most other rules, I think.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:09 PM   #20
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Time to learn familiarities

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I believe weapons have loads of familiarities, and they're used more for disassembling than repair. ;)
That would be the "use" of technology that I mentioned.

Tools used to accomplish the goal of a skill do not have familiarities. I haven't read these other threads about the Mechanic skill, but if they're saying a mechanic's tools require familiarity, I think they're wrong.

If I have Mechanic/TL8 (Automobiles), and I have familiarities in Hyundai Elantras and Volkswagon Beetles and no others, then when I try to fix a Toyota Camry I'll have a −2 penalty. It doesn't matter at all what brand tools I use provided I have tools. Equipment modifiers do apply, so if Brand X produces basic-quality tools and Brand Y produces good-quality tools, I'll get a +1 to Mechanic rolls if I use Brand Y tools. But I don't have to be familiar with them. They don't have familiarities.
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