Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-20-2017, 05:02 AM   #1
Erling
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Who Draws First? and further combat

Bob and Harry are both suddenly pulling their guns. Harry has higher Basic Speed. Bob wins Quick Contest. What happens next?

Variant #1:
Bob shoots (since he won QC);
Harry shoots (since he lost QC);
Bob shoots (since QC effectively determined their order of actions);
Harry shotos (since QC effectively determined their order of actions);
etc.

Variant #2:
Bob shoots (since he won QC);
Harry shoots (since he lost QC);
Harry shoots (since he has higher Basic Speed);
Bob shoots (since he has higher Basic Speed);
etc.

Putting it other way, my general question is "when standard Basic Speed-based turn order kicks in?"

Which variant is RAW? Which variant would you use?
__________________
When in deadly danger,
When beset by doubt,
Run in little circles,
Wave your arms and shout.
Erling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 06:27 AM   #2
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: Who Draws First? and further combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erling View Post
Bob and Harry are both suddenly pulling their guns. Harry has higher Basic Speed. Bob wins Quick Contest. What happens next?

Variant #1:
Bob shoots (since he won QC);
Harry shoots (since he lost QC);
Bob shoots (since QC effectively determined their order of actions);
Harry shotos (since QC effectively determined their order of actions);
etc.

Variant #2:
Bob shoots (since he won QC);
Harry shoots (since he lost QC);
Harry shoots (since he has higher Basic Speed);
Bob shoots (since he has higher Basic Speed);
etc.

Putting it other way, my general question is "when standard Basic Speed-based turn order kicks in?"

Which variant is RAW? Which variant would you use?
I'd go with 2nd variant the Who Draws First? is designed to tell us who shoots first before the turn sequence starts, it's not really used to determine later turn order. Speed is used to determine turn order.

The 2nd variant allows fast draw to do its thing and give it's benefit but doesn't mean Speed loses it value as well.


Bob gets his fast draw benefit (he got to shoot first), but Harry's speed advantage still applies, and comes into effect in the usual way

(of course if Bob hits Harry and there's no body armour in play, he's starting his gun fight with a big advantage)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 04-20-2017 at 02:12 PM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 10:38 AM   #3
JMason
 
JMason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Cockeysville, MD
Default Re: Who Draws First? and further combat

When I've had this sort of thing happen, I basically just let the winner get a free shot before combat begins. The looser must wait their turn. Using your example:

Bob shoots (since he won QC)
<combat turns start>
Harry shoots (since he has higher Basic Speed)
Bob shoots
etc.
__________________
---
My Blog: Dice and Discourse - My adventures in GURPS and thoughts on table top RPGs.
JMason is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 01:42 PM   #4
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Who Draws First? and further combat

GURPS is usually loathe to rearrange turn order once combat is in play. Back-to-back turns can be exploited, which is one reason whyATR costs so much, and also why Wait needs to be reigned in with predefined conditionals.

The concept of "who goes first in a round" is pretty much irrelevant (and technically even not even applicable, since there's actually no such thing as a round).

I'd be inclined to use the Who Draws First? rules to set the turn order, overriding the Basic Speed sequence, and keeping that order once the quick-draw Contest sets it.
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 02:18 PM   #5
corwyn
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Who Draws First? and further combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
GURPS is usually loathe to rearrange turn order once combat is in play. Back-to-back turns can be exploited, which is one reason whyATR costs so much, and also why Wait needs to be reigned in with predefined conditionals.

The concept of "who goes first in a round" is pretty much irrelevant (and technically even not even applicable, since there's actually no such thing as a round).

I'd be inclined to use the Who Draws First? rules to set the turn order, overriding the Basic Speed sequence, and keeping that order once the quick-draw Contest sets it.
Assuming the slower Speed wins the draw, where would you put them in the sequence if there are other combatants getting involved?
__________________
MiB 7704

Running: Ravaged Earth
Co-running D&D 5e Curse of Strahd
Playing: D&D 5e - Hoard of the Dragon Queen
corwyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 04:14 PM   #6
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Who Draws First? and further combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by corwyn View Post
Assuming the slower Speed wins the draw, where would you put them in the sequence if there are other combatants getting involved?
Immediately ahead of the person that they beat, and behind anyone faster than that character. So, the first "round" might start "in the middle", if you want to think of it that way.

If that bothers you because you can reframe the "round" to put the faster characters last in a complete notional round (rather than first in the next round), the other point of view would simply be "first", in which case everyone else goes in their usual order, perhaps inserting other character's actions between the WDF winner and the WDF loser. But in this case, I'd probably put the WDF loser right behind the WDF winner, both before everyone else that wasn't participating in the quick draw.

Note that Who Draws First really only applies when you haven't started combat yet. (The MA box says to use the regular turn sequence if combat is in progress; faster fighter strikes first.) But even without a WDF situation, a slow character often gets to go first in practice simply because they're the one that initiates the actual combat. Everyone else is standing around watching until the "slow" guy makes their move. This is the advantage of taking the initiative rather than being passive.

(The advantage comes in landing damage and thus possibly stuns and shock penalties before another character, not in the turn order per se, so it doesn't really matter where the round boundaries go. It's debatable whether acting first is even an unqualified advantage. First blood is very attractive, but going later means you get to react to other characters' actions and make the choices about concentrating on one target for finishing blows versus wounding a fresh target. If the combat isn't highly lethal and thus not over in one or a few turns, both sets of advantages tend to fade into the background, so the consistency of the turn order matters more than who goes first.)
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 07:50 AM   #7
Erling
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Re: Who Draws First? and further combat

Good point, Anaraxes. What I like in variant #1 is simplicity. Got turn sequence - will fight. No "time blob" in which characters act in special sequence before switching to normal order (which indeed can lead to back-to-back maneuver situations, what I strongly dislike). And still their skills help them act first, which is good.

Also I really enjoy determining turn sequence with Quick Contest in situations like Ambush (TS21). Ambushers win QC and simply start combat as if they had highest Basic Speed, then their quarry rolls for snapping out of partial surprise, then ambushers act again. No excessive Wait maneuvers, no back-to-back maneuvers.
__________________
When in deadly danger,
When beset by doubt,
Run in little circles,
Wave your arms and shout.
Erling is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
initiative, martial arts

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.