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Old 04-12-2017, 08:39 AM   #1
Terwin
 
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Default Can I grapple with Bite+arms in one attack?

The character in question has both sharp teeth and sharp claws and is expecting to do some 'knife hunting' in the near future.

Relevant stats are: DX 13, ST 11, Lifting ST+3, Arm ST+1, Per 14, Brawling 15, Stealth 17, Survival 14, DR1(tough skin), DR1(worn leather, may or may not be present), Move 6, Dodge 9
(no grappling skills, this is supposed to be an archer/sniper but a bow is not available for this activity)

Relevant rules I have identified:
In the basic set under Grapling it says you can grapple with one or more arms in one attack.
In MA it says you can hold on with a bite attack, turning it into a grapple.(counting as one-handed if the target is not smaller than you)

This suggests that it should be reasonable to bite and hold on with the hands in one attack.

If the prey turns out to be something dangerous like a wild boar(ST15, Combat Reflexes, Dodge 10, SM+1), I was thinking a good approach would be:
Sneak to within 3 yards, Evaluate x2, all-out-attack Determined, Deceptive attack -3
(15+1(SM)+2(evaluate)+4(Determined)-6(DA) = 16) doing 1d-1 cutting
And the target would have a break-free roll of 15 vs 22 (11+3(lift)+1(Arm)+5(two hands)+2(extra hand/mouth))

The following round I would probably release with the mouth to make a bite attack on the neck (AOA-determined again for a target number of 15), then worry the target doing 1d-1 x2(cutting to neck) each round.
(I do not think it can gore with it's tusks while I have a hold on the torso or neck, but I am not 100% certain of this)

If, on the other hand, I cannot grab hold with arms with the same attack as the bite/grapple, I would need to do AOA-double bite-grapple/arm-grapple.
Assuming I am not using the 'add or remove one or more hands at the beginning of your turn' free action(I do not want to wait and risk a break-free at 15vs14), would I get any bonuses to adding hands to an existing grapple?

If I have missed any relevant rules or discussions, please point me towards them.

Note: grapple attack with 3 'hands' would be at DX+2 so both brawling and grapple would have effective skills of 15, so rolling at the lesser of the two would not change any of the above.

Thanks.
(I have access to MA:TG but we are not using it this game)
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Old 04-12-2017, 08:57 AM   #2
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Can I grapple with Bite+arms in one attack?

A two-handed grapple is one attack. A bite is a second one. If you're doing both at the same target, it would seem Dual-Weapon Attack would be a great fit here.
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:17 AM   #3
Terwin
 
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Default Re: Can I grapple with Bite+arms in one attack?

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
A two-handed grapple is one attack. A bite is a second one. If you're doing both at the same target, it would seem Dual-Weapon Attack would be a great fit here.
That sounds like a good option if this were to be come a regular thing, but I doubt it will happen more than 1-2 times in the entire game, and with point totals starting around 100 and still under 150, AOA-double is probably the best I can muster.(Edit: AOA-Determined would counter the DWA-4, so AOA-detrmined+DWA could be a good option for the -1 defense. I sometimes forget that DWA can still be a viable option without buying up the technique)

Hopefully I can manage to be both down-wind and behind the target to set up the attack.(I believe this removes the chance to defend which in turn removes the need for the evaluate)

Would a successful bite/grapple lend any assistance to the two armed grapple?

Last edited by Terwin; 04-12-2017 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 04-13-2017, 02:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: Can I grapple with Bite+arms in one attack?

The penalty you.can inflict on attributes with the first grapple could impede the defenses imposed against the second grapple.

Given that you bite at full hit location penalties and grab at half penalties, you could make more deceptive attacks with the grab to get your foot in the door, I would bte second. That is what Sakura did in theChuunin exam, two arks grappled the right arm (aided by kunai stuck in it) which impeded marrying, then bit the left arm more easily.
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:04 PM   #5
Terwin
 
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Default Re: Can I grapple with Bite+arms in one attack?

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The penalty you.can inflict on attributes with the first grapple could impede the defenses imposed against the second grapple.
Good point, if I can't maneuver into an attack from behind/other no-defense attack, the target would get -1 to dodge from each of DWA and the existing grapple.

Doing the grab first does not work well in this case, mostly because the character does not have the skill levels to either target the neck or do deceptive attacks without bringing the effective skill below 16.(the grapple will need a 2 second evaluate just to get up to an effective skill of 16, even with AOA-Determined to counter the untrained DWA penalty)
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: Can I grapple with Bite+arms in one attack?

Instead of going right for the neck, you could grapple the torso and then I think this reduces the penalties for targeting the neck if you transition from a prexisting grapple.
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Old 04-14-2017, 08:32 AM   #7
Terwin
 
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Default Re: Can I grapple with Bite+arms in one attack?

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Instead of going right for the neck, you could grapple the torso and then I think this reduces the penalties for targeting the neck if you transition from a prexisting grapple.
I was thinking that after acquiring the grapple, I could release the bite and do an AOA-determined to bite the neck. That way I have the two-handed grapple with the +5 vs escape even if the neck-bite fails.

Then again, if the target has an unmodified dodge of 10, even with a -1 for being grappled, it may be better to just worry on the torso for 1d-1(cutting) every turn. Even against DR1, that is still an average of 2 2/3 damage per turn with no attack roll.(worrying the neck is 3 1/3 damage/turn, faster but not a lot faster)

Of course there is also the concern of a counter-attack from the boar. If the neck is not grappled, it may well be able to bite/gore and that would be doing a lot more damage than worrying, even with a -4 to the attack roll.
With the neck grappled there is still the kick to worry about, but with the extra -2 to attack and the -1 damage for being a quadruped, odds of a hit are low and the damage will be less than the worry(1d cr vs 2DR attacking around 6-8 as opposed to 1d-1 cutting vs 1 DR without an attack roll)
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Old 04-15-2017, 12:18 AM   #8
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Default Re: Can I grapple with Bite+arms in one attack?

If you consider the bite to be the base I think it would be like having two extra hands. Harder to escape.

Technical grappling probablynalso has something about control point maximum, like your trained ST is the sum of three?
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Old 04-15-2017, 02:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: Can I grapple with Bite+arms in one attack?

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Technical grappling probablynalso has something about control point maximum, like your trained ST is the sum of three?
Page 6, "Nonhuman and Superhuman Grapplers," and page 7, "Calculating Grip ST," are the relevant bits. An Trained ST 10 character grappling with both arms and the mouth* would have functional Trained ST 14. This is because you work it out by combining BL, then determining effective ST from that - ST 10 and ST 10 is BL 20 + BL 20, for BL 40, which is just a touch above ST 14 (BL 39.2).

*Grappling using a bite might not benefit from Trained ST from sources other than Brawling, unless you have a Perk to let you use, say, Wrestling for bite-based grapples**. Also, while Technical Grappling gives the bite the same ST as using both arms, it might be more appropriate to use relative SM like in Martial Arts - having the same SM or being smaller than your target would count as a one-handed grapple, for 0.5xST, which combines with ST 10 for ST 11. If the target is smaller than you, you use 1xST, for ST 14, as above.

**Personally, I simply allow for a single Perk per skill, called Beastly Combat, that lets the character use non-standard bits - teeth, claws, tails, etc - with unarmed skills that don't usually allow such (like Karate).
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Old 04-15-2017, 09:38 PM   #10
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Default Re: Can I grapple with Bite+arms in one attack?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Also, while Technical Grappling gives the bite the same ST as using both arms, it might be more appropriate to use relative SM like in Martial Arts
If you do this, you should use the relative SM rules on p. 9.
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