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Old 03-27-2018, 01:28 PM   #1
Cowrie
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Default Do tarsiers have 360 Vision?

I'm working on a setting where different fantasy races exist, with each one being related to a different primate. Goblins in this setting are based on tarsiers, and have similar eye and neck anatomy, namely eyes that are large and fixed in their sockets combined with a neck that can rotate 180 in either direction. However, based on a post by Kromm I found, I'm uncertain if this qualifies them for the advantage 360 Vision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
As pp. B74-75 points out, the game assumes that a human can see 180 while maintaining a bodily facing, and can add at most 30 to either side by turning his head or shifting slightly, for a net 240. He has normal function in the first 180, and penalized "side hex" function in the added 60. Someone with 360 Vision has full function over his full 360. With plain-vanilla 360 Vision, you have exactly two options for justifying this:

1. Your head can rotate 360 on its neck -- like a tank turret -- whilst you maintain a fixed forward facing.

2. You have eyes or equivalent sensors placed around your entire head.

Both of these are by default highly visible. Those arguing about advantages not being visible are missing the point that this is "in general," and that specific advantage assumptions always overrule general principles. Both are also by definition preventable -- you can restrain the neck or poke out the rear-facing eyes.

There are alternatives:

1. You can have eyestalks. These work a lot like rotating your head on its neck, but are more vulnerable, so you get Easy to Hit, -20%.

2. You can have huge, wide-angle eyes on the sides of your head instead of anything on the back. These work a lot like having sensors all around your head, but are more vulnerable, so you get Easy to Hit, -20%.

3. You can simply rely on uncanny light reflection or invisible eyes, or some other effect that nobody can see. This is functionally equivalent to No Signature, +20%, but is called Panoptic 1, +20%.

You can also go all the way to psychically knowing what's out there (Panoptic 2), but that's really a trait of a different order.
The phrasing there makes it sound like 360 Vision based on turning the head requires the ability to rotate it all the way around in one direction. Would the capabilities of a tarsier still qualify for the advantage?

If it does, I think the size of the eyes justifies the Easy to Hit limitation, but if it doesn't have 360 Vision, how would you price just making the eyes easier to hit? Would it be -1 point per +1 to hit like I've seen other hit locations priced here on the forums, or would it be based on the percentage value of the limitation, maybe using the "1/5 of percentage value" for modifying vision from Powers: Enhanced Senses?
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Old 03-27-2018, 02:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: Do tarsiers have 360 Vision?

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Originally Posted by Cowrie View Post
Would it be -1 point per +1 to hit like I've seen other hit locations priced here on the forums, or would it be based on the percentage value of the limitation, maybe using the "1/5 of percentage value" for modifying vision from Powers: Enhanced Senses?
Since a +2 to hit is effectively -5 with 360 Degree Vision, and -3 with Peripheral Vision, I'd call it -2 with normal vision. A +2 is a bigger disadvantage when it applies to a target that can be hit from more angles.
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Old 03-27-2018, 02:53 PM   #3
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Default Re: Do tarsiers have 360 Vision?

I would just look at the mechanical effects:
360 vision (peripheral vision)
  • Attacks from the side: no penalty to defend (same)
  • Attacks from behind: no penalty to defend (-2 to defend)
  • Attack to the side: -2 (no penalty with same hand, wild swing with alt hand)
  • Attack to the rear: -2 (wild swing)
  • +5 to detect shadowing (+3)
So, decide which set of effects makes sense. I would tend to go with peripheral vision as the tarsier does not continually scan in a circular way.
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:05 PM   #4
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Default Re: Do tarsiers have 360 Vision?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I would just look at the mechanical effects:
360 vision (peripheral vision)
  • Attacks from the side: no penalty to defend (same)
  • Attacks from behind: no penalty to defend (-2 to defend)
  • Attack to the side: -2 (no penalty with same hand, wild swing with alt hand)
  • Attack to the rear: -2 (wild swing)
  • +5 to detect shadowing (+3)
So, decide which set of effects makes sense. I would tend to go with peripheral vision as the tarsier does not continually scan in a circular way.
This sounds about right to me, though I would not say you have to be able to turn the head 360 but could achieve the same effect if you could turn it 180 either way. So you can easily turn to cover any direction, thus negating the penalties above.
My only issue is unless your always scanning you wont always see in all drections. I would probably handle that by still allowing the shadowing detect bonus but a side view penalty to all other arcs for general Per checks unless actively scanning. Not sure thats even a nuisance penalty though.
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Old 03-27-2018, 04:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: Do tarsiers have 360 Vision?

I'd give them Peripheral Vision and base the Eye to Hit limitation on that.
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Old 03-31-2018, 10:44 AM   #6
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Default Re: Do tarsiers have 360 Vision?

Thanks everyone. I've come to the conclusion that they probably should have 360 Vision, though Refplace has an excellent point about not being able to see in all directions at all times unless actively scanning. I agree that it's probably not worth a nuisance effect limitation, instead being a feature of the trait. However, after doing some messing around with the visual design, I've come to the conclusion that with the goblins in this setting, seeing them rotate their head 180 would be unsettling for most humans and other races, probably granting a slight reaction penalty. However, considering that 360 Vision is by default an "always on" advantage, I'm not sure if it's eligible for a nuisance effect limitation that would cause a reaction penalty while "in use". What do you all think?
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Old 03-31-2018, 11:16 AM   #7
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Default Re: Do tarsiers have 360 Vision?

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Originally Posted by Cowrie View Post
However, after doing some messing around with the visual design, I've come to the conclusion that with the goblins in this setting, seeing them rotate their head 180 would be unsettling for most humans and other races, probably granting a slight reaction penalty. However, considering that 360 Vision is by default an "always on" advantage, I'm not sure if it's eligible for a nuisance effect limitation that would cause a reaction penalty while "in use". What do you all think?
I would just call it an Odious Personal Habit for 5 points and give it as a racial disadvantage.
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Old 03-31-2018, 11:49 AM   #8
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Default Re: Do tarsiers have 360 Vision?

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Originally Posted by Cowrie View Post
... though Refplace has an excellent point about not being able to see in all directions at all times unless actively scanning.
Which is why I suggested Peripheral Vision, it already covers that and gives you basically the effects you want, no 'rear hex', and capacity for Vision rolls for things directly behind you.
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Old 03-31-2018, 12:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: Do tarsiers have 360 Vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
I would just call it an Odious Personal Habit for 5 points and give it as a racial disadvantage.
Yeah, that should work. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Which is why I suggested Peripheral Vision, it already covers that and gives you basically the effects you want, no 'rear hex', and capacity for Vision rolls for things directly behind you.
True, but as per the different effects of the advantages Anthony laid out in plain terms, I truly believe that 360 Vision better captures how a member of this race would fare when fighting an opponent directly behind them.
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