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Old 03-17-2017, 05:42 AM   #31
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
The 0 point feature is that no Empathy is needed against you. Needing Empathy is a defense, and that's why I use Digital mind for it (as per my post above that got lost in some discussion :)
There's apparently some ambiguity and/or confusion:

Indomitable is the defense against Influence, except against those with an appropriate Empathy. An Indomitable human will be immune to Diplomacy of anyone, including humans. But it will not protect against anyone, spirit, human or automaton, with Empathy.

OTOH, being in a different mental category may require people to either be in the same category or having the right Empathy to influence you. E.g. a river-spirit is normally unaffected by human Influence, unless they have Spirit Empathy, but will be affected just fine by another spirit using Savoir-Faire on it.

Note that spirits don't have Digital Mind. It's just a Feature that they're a different mental category.
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:10 AM   #32
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Note that spirits don't have Digital Mind. It's just a Feature that they're a different mental category.
Yeah, like I said the way I've clarified/rewritten things is an interpretation, which is house-rule territory, I'm pretty sure. I'm not quite satisfied with the official situation.

What I like about my version is that it has space for "Mortal Mind", ie, spirits and robots can't use Influence skills on you without appropriate traits.

I generally think about traits in a context of a kitchen-sink kinda supers game, a DF game (which tends to border on kitchen-sink) or a Monster Hunters game (ditto). Having an Elemental, a Human, a Demon, a Robot, and some sort of transcended entity all in the same party is good motivation to give people concrete ways to distinguish that part of their character from each other.
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:38 AM   #33
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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Originally Posted by Leynok View Post
I'm also not finding anything about rebooting in the Advantages description (only checking Basic here), and the machine Meta Trait gives you the ability to be shut down and restarted later by running out and regaining energy as a 0 point feature, so I'm still not seeing what Digital Mind is supposed to give you, aside from just being an Unusual Background example.
It's kind of a logical consequence of being software, it isn't a logical consequence of having Machine, though.

The unusual background isn't insignificant either, since the ability to have multiple instances, backups, and shells make a host of powerful exotic abilities into mundane one for you, and allows you to buy them after character creation.
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:17 AM   #34
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
It's kind of a logical consequence of being software, it isn't a logical consequence of having Machine, though.

The unusual background isn't insignificant either, since the ability to have multiple instances, backups, and shells make a host of powerful exotic abilities into mundane one for you, and allows you to buy them after character creation.
I don't know how many of these consequences are "logical" or not. Let me be clear, I am questioning the RAW. If we are simply accepting RAW, then most (if not all) of what you have said is absolutely correct.

This trait seems more setting specific than it ought to be. We really need a clear definition of "Mind" to understand this trait. It isn't what is usually meant with traits in general because this is a physical trait (unless I missed the errata ^^'). I am not well versed in the latest technology; is there a realistic example of the Digital Mind? Beyond the GM (or a player with particular tastes) needing/wanting to role-play certain modern pieces of equipment? If there is, then we probably found out why I'm confused. >_<

This sounds like a trait that is based on technology we don't really have yet, and perhaps never will. Digital Mind stitches together so many bits that are great for a fairly specific setting. I can try and go through them. In fact, I started to, but I quickly got a messy post because there really are so many assumptions being made by this trait for the setting. Yes, one can just choose to disallow Digital Mind, but that is kind of my point; it ain't generic and it ain't universal. ;)
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:32 AM   #35
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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I am not well versed in the latest technology; is there a realistic example of the Digital Mind? Beyond the GM (or a player with particular tastes) needing/wanting to role-play certain modern pieces of equipment? If there is, then we probably found out why I'm confused. >_<
Sapient software-based AI is not a thing yet, no. Neither is magic. One of these things is more plausible than the other. Why isn't Magery too setting-specific for inclusion in the Basic Set?

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This sounds like a trait that is based on technology we don't really have yet, and perhaps never will. Digital Mind stitches together so many bits that are great for a fairly specific setting.
"Software-based AI" is present in more settings than just Transhuman Space; it is a recent trend of the last few decades in SF, but it is still a trend. I don't see how it is any less generic or universal than Magery or Gunslinger.
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:45 AM   #36
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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This trait seems more setting specific than it ought to be. We really need a clear definition of "Mind" to understand this trait.
I view it as a Unusual Background that lets you buy certain other abilities and includes minor features.
The feature that telepathy and similar mental powers do not work on you could be bought as Immunity to Mind Control [30] with limitations and a disadvantage that software based Mind Control works on you.
That would have been a more generic way to build it and could have left room for Brunos "Mind" Traits. However the limitation or base cost would vary based on the frequency of occurrence of mental powers in the campaign/setting. In some settings it may not be needed at all so worth -80% [6]
Kind of a lot of word count for Basic to go into.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:23 AM   #37
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
It's kind of a logical consequence of being software, it isn't a logical consequence of having Machine, though.

The unusual background isn't insignificant either, since the ability to have multiple instances, backups, and shells make a host of powerful exotic abilities into mundane one for you, and allows you to buy them after character creation.
Except GURPS tends to work by a "Buy the Effect, not the Flavor" rule. By taking that logical leap, you're giving the Advantage an effect it didn't list based on the flavor (which doesn't matter if you're like me, and don't think that the effect given is substantial enough to be worth any points - but you've made it clear that you think it's worth something.)

The Unusual Background aspect however will vary in significance depending on the setting. I simply prefer it when an Advantage is priced solely on it's utility without UB costs rolled in, and leave it to the GM to decide if any trait is deserving of a UB and how much it should cost.

That being said, I don't see much value in Digital Mind on it's own and the effects it grants regardless of how unusual it is and what abilities it makes available to you. I would expect it to be 0 or 1 points minus the Unusual Background aspect, as I don't see much value in rebooting even if we assume it does have it.
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:01 PM   #38
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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Originally Posted by Leynok View Post
That being said, I don't see much value in Digital Mind on it's own and the effects it grants regardless of how unusual it is and what abilities it makes available to you. I would expect it to be 0 or 1 points minus the Unusual Background aspect, as I don't see much value in rebooting even if we assume it does have it.
Meat-guy and AI-guy are on a spaceship. Something goes wrong, oh-no! The spaceship drifts through space for 100 years! Meat-guy "shuts down" when the life-support fails. AI-guy voluntarily shuts down. In one hundred years AI-guy is rebooted and delivers the eulogy at Meat-guy's funeral.
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:19 PM   #39
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Meat-guy and AI-guy are on a spaceship. Something goes wrong, oh-no! The spaceship drifts through space for 100 years! Meat-guy "shuts down" when the life-support fails. AI-guy voluntarily shuts down. In one hundred years AI-guy is rebooted and delivers the eulogy at Meat-guy's funeral.
That's actually an aspect of the Machine meta-trait, not an aspect of Digital Mind, though the Machine meta-trait also lacks appropriate advantages (it's effectively Metabolism Control 10 with Hibernation, but that's explicitly forbidden for machines).

I suppose it's actually something like:
Shutdown: 0
You are immune to starvation (B426) and suffocation (B436). If you would lose fatigue due to starvation or suffocation, you instead become unconscious; this persists until the lack is corrected, at which point you recover normally (this is effectively a limited form of Doesn't Breathe and Doesn't Eat or Drink, plus a disadvantage for going unconscious immediately).
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:34 PM   #40
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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That's actually an aspect of the Machine meta-trait, not an aspect of Digital Mind, though the Machine meta-trait also lacks appropriate advantages (it's effectively Metabolism Control 10 with Hibernation, but that's explicitly forbidden for machines).

I suppose it's actually something like:
Shutdown: 0
You are immune to starvation (B426) and suffocation (B436). If you would lose fatigue due to starvation or suffocation, you instead become unconscious; this persists until the lack is corrected, at which point you recover normally (this is effectively a limited form of Doesn't Breathe and Doesn't Eat or Drink, plus a disadvantage for going unconscious immediately).
Which seems off, because Robocop's brain dies if he runs out of paste to eat. I suppose that could be Machine and Dependency (Nutrient paste) though.

On the other hand, AI-guy can still be rebooted even if he was in a bioshell, which wouldn't have Machine.
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