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Old 02-14-2017, 05:50 PM   #31
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

I assume that the layering rules use layers as a proxy for thickness, note that akethons, FROG gear, and so on don't ever count as layers.
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Old 02-15-2017, 12:51 AM   #32
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I assume that the layering rules use layers as a proxy for thickness, note that akethons, FROG gear, and so on don't ever count as layers.
Yeah arming garments are specifically pointed out as being necessary to the overall thing, separate, but too thin count as a layer (in terms of the layering rule).

It seems pretty clear that once something gives you DR it counts as a layer. Which is fine for some TLs (including ours), but as TL increase the lines going to blur for this.
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Old 02-15-2017, 12:57 AM   #33
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Depends a little on what you mean by cloth?
Pretty much everything listed under Flexible Materials in the relevant Pyramid articles, but with a primary interest in Kevlar, Dyneema, Spider Silk (which I assume is going to be one of the ones that needs room to move around), and the UT ones. From your description, it sounds like MLA and STF (both being what UT called Reflex) might be able to get away with it to some extent, and energy cloth can probably do so as well, but the others may be no-go's.

I'll probably stick with the paradigm of flexible bodysuit with rigid armor over it, simply because I like the aesthetics and mechanical effects, but it's always useful to know where one is deviating from what it realistic. In more realistic settings, if substantial rigid armor is needed in addition to some flexible, I'll probably go with a brigandine design.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I assume that the layering rules use layers as a proxy for thickness, note that akethons, FROG gear, and so on don't ever count as layers.
You may be right that it's more a proxy for thickness than some other effect, although I will note that any aketon substantial enough for DR 1* does count toward layering penalties.
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Old 02-15-2017, 01:05 AM   #34
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I assume that the layering rules use layers as a proxy for thickness, note that akethons, FROG gear, and so on don't ever count as layers.
Some things called aketons would certainly be thick enough, going beyond the call of duty as auxiliary padding and arming garments.

IIRC the crusader loadout is one example of that.
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Old 02-15-2017, 01:10 AM   #35
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

Thick DR 1 cloth armor counting as a layer supports my statement that layers are probably a proxy for thickness...
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Old 02-15-2017, 01:38 AM   #36
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Thick DR 1 cloth armor counting as a layer supports my statement that layers are probably a proxy for thickness...
Agreed.

Which is why it would have been pretty useful to get guidelines in Cutting Edge Armor for when to apply a -1 DX penalty even for good-quality armour tailored to the user, when a higher DX penalty applied and at what thickness the armour simply would not allow mobility, even restricted.

I understand that it would realistically vary by material, but surely some rule-of-thumb benchmarks could have been provided, which were either consistent with published examples of armour load-outs or established a consistent system of its own which a GM desiring that kind of precision could use for all armour.
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Old 02-15-2017, 01:43 AM   #37
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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I assume that the layering rules use layers as a proxy for thickness, note that akethons, FROG gear, and so on don't ever count as layers.
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Yeah arming garments are specifically pointed out as being necessary to the overall thing, separate, but too thin count as a layer (in terms of the layering rule).

It seems pretty clear that once something gives you DR it counts as a layer. Which is fine for some TLs (including ours), but as TL increase the lines going to blur for this.
I don't know. I'm not sure it's still fine at our TL.

From what I can tell, some aketons that were worn as padding seem to have been thick enough to provide some DR if they were made of Improved Ballistic Polymer rather than low-tech fabric.

Surely, the determination whether an armour loadout gives a DX penalty ought to be determined based on the thickness, flexibility, restrictive mobility and fit of the whole thing; not on whether individual layers are counted seperately for DR or the armour is instead given a total DR number based on the most effective layer and a DR penalty for missing the padding.
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Old 02-15-2017, 02:59 AM   #38
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

I'm not entirely sure I buy the thickness argument. Layered t-shirts feel far more restrictive around the shoulders than a thicker single sweater (as an ad-hoc experiment I just did). Interactions between the layers strikes me as too important to ignore.
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Old 02-15-2017, 03:10 AM   #39
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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I'm not entirely sure I buy the thickness argument. Layered t-shirts feel far more restrictive around the shoulders than a thicker single sweater (as an ad-hoc experiment I just did). Interactions between the layers strikes me as too important to ignore.
On any tactical armour loadout professionally designed to be worn together, the outer layer ought to be securely fastened to the inner layer where it will provide the desired protection at the cost of as limited restrictiveness as possible, not just riding outside it willy-nilly.

There certainly exists and has existed throughout multiple tech levels, what amounts to munition armour for issue to soldiers of all sizes and shapes, which will often give a -1 DX penalty or worse, with or without having multiple layers.

Good-quality gear, however, should generally not give a DX penalty unless it is deliberately sacrificing comfort and flexibility to ensure necessary protection, i.e. it has DR near the limits of what the materials can be expected to provide without unreasonable thickness.
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Old 02-15-2017, 03:10 AM   #40
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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I don't know. I'm not sure it's still fine at our TL.

From what I can tell, some aketons that were worn as padding seem to have been thick enough to provide some DR if they were made of Improved Ballistic Polymer rather than low-tech fabric.

Surely, the determination whether an armour loadout gives a DX penalty ought to be determined based on the thickness, flexibility, restrictive mobility and fit of the whole thing; not on whether individual layers are counted seperately for DR or the armour is instead given a total DR number based on the most effective layer and a DR penalty for missing the padding.
Well I think the problem is this is all on a spectrum, and the DX layer penalty is a hard and fast cut off.

And as you say not only is it on spectrum of thickness to impeding wearer function, but there a whole bunch of variables on top of that. Like fit, acclimatisation, differing physical properties of the materiel outside of abstract thickness, how the layers interact as worn things etc, etc.

As I said earlier the just giving DR as a defining point here is itself a problem because at TL8 even going by minimum thickness/DR you can make some pretty thin and light layers that give DR, and this only becomes more true at higher TLs. (also the minimum thickness seems bit arbitrary, just as the max thickness does)


Ultimately I think the -1 DX per layers works as a general solution for covering several factors. But I do think a more nuanced system for looking at the limiting factors wearing armour has, as the more you look at it and the more armour begins to mean different things the more questions it raises.

As I said I use the AP system to do this because I think it's a good fit, especially when you add in stuff like the shooting amour rules from Tactical shooting, and "my armour doesn't fit" rules from LT (which IMO should also apply in later TLs with an adjustment for the DR reduction)

Of course there is no down side for me of using Last Gasp to do this since I'm already using it! So I just add some modifiers to AP and carry on as before. I wouldn't recommend bringing it in just to given an alternative way to deal with the downsides of armour layers or armour in general

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