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Old 02-14-2017, 09:57 AM   #11
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
... I will note again that plate carriers exist because some units wanted to sacrifice some protection for mobility, so that tradeoff does exist in the real world.

That isn't true, hence plate carriers.
I don't know about MTV, but the TL 8 Assault Vest in High Tech (apparently based on Interceptor OTV body armor) has the flexible armor weighing as much as the plates, and cutting weight (nearly) in half could easily be something some units would be willing to sacrifice some protection for. Thin plate carriers may also be more comfortable to wear over long periods, which doesn't translate well to GURPS mechanics. Finally, there's always the possibility that the penalties eliminated by switching to plate carriers are below the resolution of a full -1 to DX - maybe they'd be more appropriate as a penalty to specific DX-based skills, or they increase the effective Bulk of firearms, or something similarly-finicky.

Note I'm just listing alternate possibilities - it may well be the case that you are correct, and trauma plates should function as layered armor when combined with flexible armor.
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:27 AM   #12
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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I'm unfamiliar with AIM; the above are what I'd use for elite Ultra Tech soldiers, and may or may not actually be appropriate for AIM troops.
I'm betting he's wanting to go with something like the M.O.D.O.C. squad for the AIM soldiers:
https://greyzealot.files.wordpress.c...c-soldiers.jpg
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:41 AM   #13
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

Thread split off from [Supers/Ultra-Tech] Making Advanced Tech Opponents Not-Unstoppable Badasses?.
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:30 AM   #14
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

Having a thrust vest with and without the inserts (flexible inserts), the inserts don't seem to make it particularly more DX reducing, but definitely add weight
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:55 AM   #15
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I don't know about MTV, but the TL 8 Assault Vest in High Tech (apparently based on Interceptor OTV body armor) has the flexible armor weighing as much as the plates, and cutting weight (nearly) in half could easily be something some units would be willing to sacrifice some protection for. Thin plate carriers may also be more comfortable to wear over long periods, which doesn't translate well to GURPS mechanics. Finally, there's always the possibility that the penalties eliminated by switching to plate carriers are below the resolution of a full -1 to DX - maybe they'd be more appropriate as a penalty to specific DX-based skills, or they increase the effective Bulk of firearms, or something similarly-finicky.

Note I'm just listing alternate possibilities - it may well be the case that you are correct, and trauma plates should function as layered armor when combined with flexible armor.
I forgot the OTV, yeah, also awkward and uncomfortable (but not as bad as the MTV with E-SAPIs).

In comparison a mail hauberk with a breastplate is way more comfortable and less awkward, IME.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:06 PM   #16
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

I'd say my rule of thumb is if the armor was designed as a whole, even if it is able to disassembled into arbitrary overlapping sub-components, then no layering penalty.

At low tech levels the engineering is simply not there, so it's not an issue (unless dwarves or elves decided to do it). At high tech levels the engineering and construction abilities reach the point where an arbitrary number of removable layered sub components in a single suit become possible, with after market add-ons adding yet another set of twists.

The modern vest with the insert pockets is designed as a whole, with adding or removing the inserts being removable sub-components. If the body suit under the clamshell armor is designed to be used together as a whole, I'd say no layering penalty unless the design or manufacturing was shoddy. That doesn't apply to any random bodysuit, just ones designed to go with that specific type of clamshell.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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I'd say my rule of thumb is if the armor was designed as a whole, even if it is able to disassembled into arbitrary overlapping sub-components, then no layering penalty.

At low tech levels the engineering is simply not there, so it's not an issue (unless dwarves or elves decided to do it). At high tech levels the engineering and construction abilities reach the point where an arbitrary number of removable layered sub components in a single suit become possible, with after market add-ons adding yet another set of twists.

The modern vest with the insert pockets is designed as a whole, with adding or removing the inserts being removable sub-components. If the body suit under the clamshell armor is designed to be used together as a whole, I'd say no layering penalty unless the design or manufacturing was shoddy. That doesn't apply to any random bodysuit, just ones designed to go with that specific type of clamshell.
That's the exact opposite of my experience...
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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That's the exact opposite of my experience...
Sorry, but that's too vague for me to understand. Please elaborate.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:28 PM   #19
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
Sorry, but that's too vague for me to understand. Please elaborate.
Modern body armor (especially the MTV clamshell) with SAPI (E-SAPIs for the MTV) is significantly more awkward and uncomfortable then layering a breastplate over maille hauberk and akethon.
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:03 PM   #20
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Modern body armor (especially the MTV clamshell) with SAPI (E-SAPIs for the MTV) is significantly more awkward and uncomfortable then layering a breastplate over maille hauberk and akethon.
In what manner is it more awkward and unconfortable? Do the inserts tend to move around as you do? Is it thicker than the breastplate+hauberk combination in some area? Does it restrict movement of the abdomen? Are your elbows constantly rubbing against it? If we can work out what it is that makes modern body armor with inserts unconfortable, we might be able to work out a good way to GURPS-ify the effect. This is particularly important to get a good differentiation because, unless that breatplate gave 4/6 or less protection to the chest, GURPS RAW would have it suffer layering penalties.
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