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Old 02-12-2017, 11:19 PM   #31
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSumner View Post
The scenario's objective is for the Ninja to destroy a sensitive enemy research facility. There are two structures. One structure is a fake, a decoy, set up to look like its active, and the other is the real deal. NAC Military Intelligence isn't quite sure which of the two structures houses the actual facility though. The Ninja would have to get within 3 hexes to determine which one is the decoy. There could even be decoy & hidden defensive units set up around both facilities so the attacker really has their work cut out for them.
Sounds cool.

In case anyone may find this useful, I came up with a modified 13.06 "Dummy units" spotting rule, usable by any unit for confirming Buildings/Structures in a hex. Use 3D Structures as the Dummy Markers, and place a numbered ? marker to identify them. #1 indicates the actual Buiding/Structure.
I wanted to optionally have something that had a range component and some randomness for special situations.
It follows the same 13.06 Dummy units rule but a D6 roll for spotting is made modified by the range to the Dummy Building/Structure. The closer the identifying unit, the better the chance for success. Spotting range begins at 5 hexes away as a base of 6. Subtract the range to the Dummy Target from the D6 roll to determine the chance for successful target identification.
For example, A unit is 6 hexes away from the probable target = no chance to confirm if anything is there.
5 hexes away = 5 - base of 6 = 1 in 6 target detection/confirmation chance (on a 1).
4 hexes away = 4 - base of 6 = 2 in 6 target detection/confirmation chance (on a 1,2).
3 hexes away = 3 - base of 6 = 3 in 6 target detection/confirmation chance (on a 1,2,3).
2 hexes away = 2 - base of 6 = 4 in 6 target detection/confirmation chance (on a 1,2,3,4).
1 hex away = 1- base of 6 = 5 in 6 target detection/confirmation chance (on a 1,2,3,4,5).
In the same hex as the target or moving through the same hex as the target = Automatic target detection/confirmation.

No matter the identifying unit type, all have a range of 5 to begin detecting at the end of their movement phase. A Infantry squad is considered a single unit for this purpose. GEVs are the exception and may attempt to detect twice per turn at the end of each of their movement phases.
The rationale for this is they are better equipped for spotting hidden buildings/structures due to their movement speed and higher than normal operating altitude, giving them an edge.

This rule gives new use for all those duplicate buildings/structures.

Here's a video showing a GEV Ace deployed to locate a abandoned Paneuropean Command Post:
https://youtu.be/rTH6Hx2e56Q
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 02-12-2017 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 02-12-2017, 11:33 PM   #32
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
For example, A unit is 6 hexes away from the hidden target = no chance to confirm if anything is there.
5 hexes away = 1 in 6 spotting chance (on a 1).
4 hexes away = 2 in 6 spotting chance (on a 1,2).
3 hexes away = 3 in 6 spotting chance (on a 1,2,3).
2 hexes away = 4 in 6 spotting chance (on a 1,2,3,4).
1 hex away = 5 in 6 spotting chance (on a 1,2,3,4,5).
In the same hex as the target or moving through the same hex as the target = Automatic target detection/confirmation.
An easier but mathematically identical way to do this is just say a unit has to roll better than the number of hexes distant:
5 hexes away = 1 in 6 spotting chance (fail on a 5 or less).
4 hexes away = 2 in 6 spotting chance (fail on a 4 or less).
3 hexes away = 3 in 6 spotting chance (fail on a 3 or less).
2 hexes away = 4 in 6 spotting chance (fail on a 2 or less).
1 hex away = 5 in 6 spotting chance (fail on a 1).
This comports with Ogre design philosophy of higher rolls being better.
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Old 02-13-2017, 12:21 AM   #33
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

Nice! It's at-a-glance easier and more sensible. Range away = chance of failure.

Thanks :)

Maybe there could be a unit specific spotting range equal to the units attack range?

OGRE: range equals the Mark of the OGRE:
Mark1: range of 1
Mark2: range of 2
Mark 3/3B: range of 3
Mark 4: range of 4
Mark5, Fencer, FencerB: range of 5
Mark 6, Doppelsoldner: range of 6
NINJA: 6 (This is higher than the NINJA's chassis Mark, but it should be given it's advanced tech, and at 6 is easy to remember it's the same as the highest OGRE)
Mobile Howitzer = range of 6
Missile Tank = range of 4
Superheavy = range of 3
Heavy Tank, Light Tank, GEV, Light GEV, GEV-PC = range of 2
Infantry Squad = range of 1 for each Squad up to maximum range of 3 for 3 Squads.

I recall elsewhere it was mentioned that Light Tanks were often useful for scouting...maybe they should have a higher range because of this?
Doubled from range 2 to a range of 4? This way, they may be chosen over other units when considering their spotting ability.

I think this has relevance in this thread as it's dealing with NINJAish concepts concerning hidden units, camouflage, spotting, ect.
There is another thread with a cool NINJA Scenario in the works where it's mentioned wanting to have some sort of spotting:
"Special rules:
The Ninja can differentiate between “dummy” buildings and “objective” buildings at 6 hexes. The Mk.IIs can do so at 4 hexes, and the GEVs at 2 hexes."
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=148358
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 02-13-2017 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 02-13-2017, 01:46 AM   #34
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

Drew, some questions if you would clarify please:

On Page 21 of the OGRE DE Rules on the EFFECTS OF CRUISE MISSILE EXPLOSION table,
Results Odds listed left to right are: X 4-1 2-1 1-1 1-2 NE
...is 3-1 intentionally left out???
OGRE MINIATURES Rules includes 3-1, but OGRE DE does not.

Do all the NINJA abilities only affect the NINJA and not other units if they were in the same hex as the NINJA? Meaning, there is no NINJA "umbrella" abilities that also help friendly units under said umbrella, correct?
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Old 02-13-2017, 08:45 AM   #35
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
On Page 21 of the OGRE DE Rules on the EFFECTS OF CRUISE MISSILE EXPLOSION table,
Results Odds listed left to right are: X 4-1 2-1 1-1 1-2 NE
...is 3-1 intentionally left out???
OGRE MINIATURES Rules includes 3-1, but OGRE DE does not.
Dropping 3-1 better represents a halving factor; each value is 1/2 the next.
4/2 = 2
2/2 = 1
1/2 = 1/2

So it's easier to remember without looking at the table: each hex further away cuts the odds in half.

Quote:
Do all the NINJA abilities only affect the NINJA and not other units if they were in the same hex as the NINJA? Meaning, there is no NINJA "umbrella" abilities that also help friendly units under said umbrella, correct?
As usual with how all the other rules work, if it doesn't explicitly say it does, it implicitly does not.
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Old 02-13-2017, 08:51 AM   #36
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

Wait. Is this an actual rule or a fan suggestion?
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Old 02-13-2017, 09:37 AM   #37
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
Wait. Is this an actual rule or a fan suggestion?
The link in the OP is to the new rule: http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/new-unit...567.1471662993
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:29 PM   #38
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

As usual, GranitePenguin has hit the nail on the head.

The drop in CM effect is due to halving the attack on the hex closer to the detonation.

An no, there is no Ninja "umbrella". Now if you and whomever you're playing with want to add it as a house rule, feel free to do so. But officially the rules are for the Ninja as listed.

D.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:59 AM   #39
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
Dropping 3-1 better represents a halving factor; each value is 1/2 the next.
4/2 = 2
2/2 = 1
1/2 = 1/2

So it's easier to remember without looking at the table: each hex further away cuts the odds in half.

As usual with how all the other rules work, if it doesn't explicitly say it does, it implicitly does not.
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
Wait. Is this an actual rule or a fan suggestion?
I asked because in the Operation Guillotine Thread, ianargent said:

"All Combine units enter the board from the same hex on south edge of S1, any hex may be used. They have been traveling essentially “shoulder to shoulder” to stay under the Ninja’s ECM umbrella, despite the risks of being so close; until the Ninja reports they've been spotted."

It had me wondering if the NINJAs abilities were exclusive to the NINJA or also for friendly units using the NINJAs abilities "umbrella" for those abilities.

Either way is fine, just curious what was official. It is an interesting possibility to have a umbrella affect though as a actual unofficial rule. Some of the NINJA rules that were dropped had this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf90 View Post
As usual, GranitePenguin has hit the nail on the head.

The drop in CM effect is due to halving the attack on the hex closer to the detonation.

An no, there is no Ninja "umbrella". Now if you and whomever you're playing with want to add it as a house rule, feel free to do so. But officially the rules are for the Ninja as listed.

D.
Thanks guys.
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Old 02-15-2017, 12:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
I asked because in the Operation Guillotine Thread, ianargent said:

"All Combine units enter the board from the same hex on south edge of S1, any hex may be used. They have been traveling essentially “shoulder to shoulder” to stay under the Ninja’s ECM umbrella, despite the risks of being so close; until the Ninja reports they've been spotted."
That was purely "fluff" to explain how the NAC units got so close to a critical defense node, and to explain why all units had to use the same entry hex - to do so they would have been violating the stacking rules, if nothing else.

The entrance hex indicates the point at which "normal game rules" are in effect; prior to that narrative convention applies.
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