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Old 02-05-2017, 07:05 PM   #11
TheAmishStig
 
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

Good stuff...sad to see the decoy mechanic go, I really liked that one.
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Old 02-06-2017, 12:37 PM   #12
selenite
 
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokke View Post
The general feeling back then was that this made the Ninja rather hard.
I think it still is a damn tough unit. But it's in the league with the existing ones instead of running rings around them.

The existing scenarios, especially Kill the CP, don't work well with the Ninja. We'll have to come up with new ones for it.

Contest, anyone?
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:15 PM   #13
dwalend
 
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Originally Posted by selenite View Post
The existing scenarios, especially Kill the CP, don't work well with the Ninja.
Tweak the victory conditions a bit and it can work. The ninja has to kill the CP and get off the map to win. The ninja is a national strategic asset. Leaving it next to a smoking CP is a loss.
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:25 PM   #14
wolf90
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
So tricks aren't a thing now?
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Originally Posted by lokke View Post
The last paragraph seems to imply that players are free to invent their own Tricks.
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Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
Simplicity has always been a hallmark of Ogre -- this latest revision keeps the tradition going.
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Originally Posted by HeatDeath View Post
One of the defining characteristics of the game is, because of the scale of the weapons and the turn-length, you play the game "from 30,000 feet up", so to speak. These rule fit that character much better.
Tricks have been pulled in the spirit of simplicity. Although that Ninja was fun in its own way, it definitely had departed from Ogre as we know it. Think of it as the cybertank version of Battlesuit; same milieu, vastly different focus. It didn't "fit" with the rest of the rules.

And yes, a backdoor was deliberately left ajar, both for players to create their own 'tricks' as well as possible scenario hooks later on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
Good stuff...sad to see the decoy mechanic go, I really liked that one.
Yeah, I did too. That was the last part to be cut. But again, it added a layer of complexity that we felt didn't mesh with the base game. Sometimes you just have to let go . . .

D.
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:48 PM   #15
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

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Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
Tweak the victory conditions a bit and it can work. The ninja has to kill the CP and get off the map to win. The ninja is a national strategic asset. Leaving it next to a smoking CP is a loss.
The Ninja would also work as the attacker in Breakthrough and Raid.
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Old 02-09-2017, 11:04 AM   #16
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

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Originally Posted by wolf90 View Post
And yes, a backdoor was deliberately left ajar, both for players to create their own 'tricks' as well as possible scenario hooks later on.
I think the concept works much better as scenario-specific mission loadouts; the whole "Suprise! My Ninja has a trick that breaks this scenario!" problem goes away, and the "Why don't they put these cool missiles on a MK IV instead?" problem too.
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Old 02-09-2017, 12:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

Agreed, and that's why we left that in there.

We can publish a scenario including some "trick" if we choose to without going against the "official" Ninja rules, but keep the overall design simple in the manner of the base Ogre rules. I like having my cake and eating it too!

KISS for the win!
<grin>

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Old 02-09-2017, 09:48 PM   #18
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

Ogre Ninja

Points: 150+

Of the many experimental cybertanks designed by the empires of the 21st century, certainly the best known was the Combine's Ninja. It was by far the most successful attempt at a "stealth" cybertank. How do you hide something the size of a small building? With lots of electronics. The Ninja traded offensive armament for speed, intelligence (almost all were self-aware), and defensive electronics and weaponry. Probably fewer than a hundred were built; they were expensive, and not cost-effective in a stand-up combat role. But as sneaky raiders or tactical recon units, they were unmatched. Legends built up around the Ninja.

The Ninja carries a main battery and 2 secondary batteries. It had a single missile rack and 4 internal missiles; 2 more missiles were mounted externally. It had 8 AP batteries. A Ninja starts with a move of 4 and 40 tread units.

A Ninja has state-of-the-art detection equipment, giving it advanced awareness of mines and other hidden units. Whenever a Ninja is about to enter a hex with a mine or a hidden unit, the opposing player needs to acknowledge the presence of a mine (or hidden unit) within the hex. The Ninja may then choose to stay still, move elsewhere, or continue into the hex. If a Ninja voluntarily enters a mined hex, the mine goes off only on a roll of a 6, instead of the usual 5 or 6.

Because of a Ninja's elaborate ECM, ECCM, extra point-defense armament, etc., it's very hard to hit. Subtract 1 from the die roll of any attack made against a Ninja except, in overruns only, by Ogres or infantry.

Units cannot combine fire against the Ninja unless they are attacking from an adjacent hex. Units farther away must take their shots individually. Infantry may still combine into platoons. An enemy Ogre may still combine the fire of any of its own weapons.

Ninjas have been accompanied on missions by a variety of drones: recon, security, and simple distraction. None of these are very large, but some might be dangerous. Players and referees are encouraged to be creative.


:)

This is a solid foundation.

The mine detection ability is Good. Glad to see it was kept onboard.

The -1 to-hit the NINJA is Good. Glad to see it was kept on-board.
"except, in overruns only, by Ogres or infantry." The addition of OGRE attacks is Good too. It compliments the OGRE can Combine Fire against a NINJA only if adjacent to it rule nicely.

I assume the -1 to-hit "any attack made against a NINJA" includes a Cruise Missile.

It may prove useful to allow the NINJA to instead of having the -1 to-hit it be converted to it being considered to be 1 additional hex farther from the Cruise Missile explosion when using the EFFECTS OF MISSILE EXPLOSION Table. Imho, The NINJA should have some advantage over CMs. In effect, this is simply allowing it a free modifier as if it were in a terrain hex when the CM detonates.

The no Combine Fire against a NINJA unless adjacent, Infantry can still combine into platoons and OGREs can still Combine Fire their own weapons exclusively is Good. Attacking OGREs are disadvantaged until they are adjacent.
__________________________________________________ _________

My thoughts on the NINJA and FanMade musings...

*The NINJA, while few actually saw it for what it was during The Last War other than a over-budget, over complicated technologically advanced OGRE experiment, was in fact simply the next generation of OGREs being developed and fielded. Like the Messerschmitt Me 262 of WW2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262 The Mark4 illustrates this. It had no Stealth capability, yet was essentially a NINJA Template scaled up in size. It was the first generation Stealth OGRE larger than a NINJA. Had development been allowed to continue the Mark4 SHINOBI would have been fielded with full Stealth capabilities. A deep strike NINJA.

*The new munitions and weapon systems for the NINJA from the previous draft were easily and simply explainable as being NINJA exclusive because they were cutting edge, thus, they were exclusively made for the cutting edge NINJA. Such advanced munitions and weapon systems would not be marginalized on inferior weapon platforms, which were the non-Stealth OGREs and units. Their inferior AI and operating systems were not able to.
That's not to say, it couldn't happen, like the surprising number of Mark1s retrofitted with Descartes Packages. If there was a viable need it would have been done. So, here, you could have the hard rule, only NINJAs had this stuff(.) -OR- other OGREs and units could be retrofitted, if the points are paid and players agree this would be something they want to use in their OGRE Timeline.

The NINJA remains at "Points: 150+" unless this is a typo, it must follow that higher point costing NINJAs are still possible...

...Such were explored in the previous draft both officially and FanMade.

*If NINJA capabilities beyond those of this draft are used, players could agree before a game using a NINJA to either allow the player not playing the NINJA to have full knowledge of the NINJAs capabilities for that game, or not know any at all. Thus, nobody is ever unfairly disadvantaged unless they want to have the optional fun of being so. For example, a more experienced player chooses to be surprised when playing against a less experienced player running a NINJA.

I would still like to allow the NINJA "Tricks" and different munitions and weapon systems for reasons stated above. The NINJA was the next generation OGRE and those things would have been exclusive to the NINJA since their superior AI over non-Stealth OGREs made the operation of these systems only possible because only they had the capability to do so.


I give this draft two thumbs up with a big grin. :)
Well done! THIS is a NINJA.



I just bought OGRE 6th Edition and looking forward to running this draft NINJA!

...to be continued... ;)

__________________________________________________ ____________________

Parting question...on Page 21 of the OGRE DE Rules on the EFFECTS OF CRUISE MISSILE EXPLOSION table,
Results Odds listed left to right are: X 4-1 2-1 1-1 1-2 NE
...is 3-1 intentionally left out???
OGRE MINIATURES Rules includes 3-1, but OGRE DE does not.
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 02-20-2017 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 02-10-2017, 09:35 AM   #19
DSumner
 
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

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Originally Posted by Desert Scribe View Post
The Ninja would also work as the attacker in Breakthrough and Raid.
I see the Ninja as a strategic level asset, held in reserve to exploit a breakthrough. It wouldn't be "wasted" on a CP, but something like a port facility or a nuclear reactor would be legit targets.

As far as the various "tricks" go, I'm good with them being scenario specific.
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Old 02-10-2017, 09:37 AM   #20
ianargent
 
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Default Re: New Ninja rules

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Originally Posted by DSumner View Post
I see the Ninja as a strategic level asset, held in reserve to exploit a breakthrough. It wouldn't be "wasted" on a CP, but something like a port facility or a nuclear reactor would be legit targets.

As far as the various "tricks" go, I'm good with them being scenario specific.
Something like Operation Newspaper or Operation Icepick? (Obviously, with appropriately balanced defensive forces)
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